@Morello/Xypherous: Can we get an update on the stealth remake please?

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Jaystander

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnigryphon View Post
Maybe this was already answered,but i must ask. What if there is both an eve and a twitch on your team? How do the vision gems work then? Obviously they could just be binary (if either champ is visible, it turns red), but I foresee it leading to some weird situation such as an eve obviously in range (lets say shes' having a duel up top or something) meanwhile twitch is stalking someone bot, but he can't tell if he's visible because they're already red.

I suppose you could also make it the gems only visible to the stealthed player, but I feel like knowing whether or not your stealthed champ is visible (when you're a teammate) would be good information to have.
The vision gems are individual, each stealth champion only sees the ones associated with their stealth. Also they only see the gems on champions that are within 1400 range and visible to them.


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xXBlooDYMagEXx

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post
Hi guys!

I've been working on the Eve and Twitch remakes that coincide with the stealth remake. I'll try to post details soon and get some community feedback on it.
you like grassyhyren don't you? :P


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ZodiarkSavior

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. Okay, well, I suppose it's been a while since I've given an update so I'll chime in on this a little:

Following up from last time, the general problem(s) with long term stealth was:

1. There was no way for the opponents to get an inkling of how clever the stealth player was being, and thus there was no good way to get a sense of how that player operates.
2. Stealth is claustrophobic in the way that it makes you play.
3. Stealth gives very powerful scouting information while simultaneously hiding that information from your opponent.

We tried some iterations past the first few tests, with Paranoia, alternate resource bars, footprints, phasing and mark systems but in the end, we settled on the current system because it was the simplest solution for long-term stealth. In short: "Everyone has reduced Oracles, but Evelynn and Twitch are perma-stealthed."

Some Partial Stealth Details

Disclaimer: I fully understand this destroys a *lot* of the current stealth gameplay changes. Unfortunately, through lots of iteration, I was unable to capture the feeling of pure invisibility while in stealth while having fun gameplay. In the end, I decided to opt for a very simple system that was highly understandable over some more fiddling mechanics.

1. Evelynn and Twitch are permanently stealthed when they rank their level one stealth abilities. However, Evelynn and Twitch can be seen when they are within X units of an enemy champion (Slightly under vision range), or when they are within a true sight radius.

If they attack, they are revealed briefly for 2 seconds before going back into stealth.

This 'X' is being adjusted for feel between the two champions. 'X' is smaller than champion vision radius, so you can "stalk" an opposing champion, but it will be farther away.

2. Evelynn and Twitch have a "sight gem" above opponent's, telling them when the enemy can see them or not and whether they are "safe" (green sight gem), "warning - you are close to being seen, but still unseen" (yellow sight gem) or "being seen" (red sight gem.)

Results

Long Term Stealth, in this case, has been removed as a primary initiation mechanic but allows Eve and Twitch to cross minion vision and regular sight bubbles with impunity and sneak into brush patches by circle/stalk their opponents. Their opponents can likewise spot-check areas with their own reveal radius and create zones were stealth characters "probably aren't, otherwise they'd be seen."

The sight gem allows the Eve/Twitch player to take much of the guesswork out of figuring out when they were being seen or revealed and allows them to put more of their thoughts on clever positioning and sneaking around their opponents, especially for lane ganks.

This also lets us make them more combat oriented characters that don't immediately blow up on start. In general, this stealth has proven to be very difficult to use but allows characters to have some bluff gameplay and interesting circle/stalk gameplay in testing. Your characters can still scout, but at a highly diminished effectiveness (due to the increased range.)

In team fights, stealth proved to be less effective than before, so the character's combat viabilities are being looked at through reworks/remakes.

What is blocking us on releasing this:

1. There's a pretty big problem with the concept known as Oracle-Sweeping. We'd want to replace Oracle's elixir with someone that doesn't cause such weird gameplay but as to what would be a *good* replacement is a little up in the air.

2. General particle/kit rebalancing work - We need to heavily redo Evelynn and Twitch's kits and that comes different visuals and graphical effects.

What I am testing right now - Additionally

Sight wards as being partial motion sensors - Sight wards signalling when a hostile is moving nearby?
"Robot Chicken" scout drone
"Wriggles" for supports?

I probably shouldn't do this but as compensation, some sneaks..

Evelynn can have her stun back, because now you have advanced warning of her when she steps in. She might need a short-step-stun in order to successfully initiate. Testing required. Twitch has proven to be a slightly harder problem in internal testing.

As an aside: Hate spike is now awesome (for me, at least). Evelynn now has Champion prioritizing Lurker Spines. This makes her lane less bad.

As usual, feel free to ask questions for a little bit as I stick around. I don't know all the details of the full remake (as Live better understands that new environment). Sorry for the delay, but with Orianna/Champion pipeline and such, this has been somewhat of a lower priority for me.
Mhm..
So Ghost and Flash will be a must on both Twitch and Eve?
(Ghost to gettaway, and chase liek a baws. Flash to get out of Vision radius)


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C2SeitenLotus

Senior Member

07-13-2011

How will this affect akali?For example, if i use my shroud in my lane, while allowing it to connect to the bush, will the enemy be able to tell that i moved into the brush depending on whether my gem disappears suddenly?


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DreidelFan

Senior Member

07-13-2011

dota had reveal stealth powder for 80g

maybe just drop the price of oracles, or make a cheaper version that cant see wards but stealth chars


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The Jaberwock

Senior Member

07-13-2011

YESSSSSS... What about Teemo and Shaco. Shaco has such a short stealth that if he did get revealed before he was in his attack ranged id suck, And you know Teemo players just like chilling in a bush. I think the area of effect oracles should only effect Eve and Twtich and leave everything else stealthed alone. And auto pinging wards would be awesome, preferably with a different ping sound so we can differentiate between a ward and a player.

Also thanks for actually replying with this, I didn't expect it and would +100 if I could


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Kuanny1990

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Junior Member

07-13-2011

I am an eve player, and with the recent nerf I actually find her even more fun to play and to be honest we have seen a lot less eves in games now at least in normal games dont know about high elo (and I gathered that those who still play are skilled).

And i would like to point out as always her early games determines her late game, and she really isnt that great a laner in terms of getting creep counts without getting harassed, nor does she have farming abilities at the moment. She really does rely on the early ganks or at least the mind games she is currently able to deliver.

Looking at the changes you have mentioned that she will be buffed somehow to lane, would that mean she is getting a basic stat increase or a skill which will enable her to farm creeps. Mind you, the stealth as it currently proposed to be will not help her a bit in lane since normally the enemies are too close.

Regarding the sight radius, i saw a mentioning of 1400 units is that for the stealthed player to see a gem on the opponent or to be seen by the enemy champ?

And as a personal opinion I think that this true sight radius thing must be less than the radius of the current pink ward and of course the oracle.

Regarding the flare, is it a damaging spell or is it only used to reveal enemies? because currently Eve has 1 utility spell, 2 damaging spells and the ultimate. I saw that someone mentioned she is going to have a passive and active skill which the passive is her stealth, am I right to guess that the active is the flare thus she will have her hate spikes "renamed" and her hop-stun and the ultimate still.

Lastly is the ultimate mechanism going to be altered anymore apart from the heal to shield business. If she is getting a shield instead of the heal for the kill may I suggest she also gets some sort of cc immune along with it. Because the shield is a big nerf compared to the kill/assist heal she gets currently. Since the shield only appears at the start of using ulti and also goes down in ~2 seconds (even if she isnt taking damage, ie non permanent gain), unlike the heal which comes in when she is lower hp from fighting potentially saving her and also is not removed through time unless attacked. Or at least give the shield a larger amount of hp compared to the heal she got pre-nerf.

Also is it a viable option to have a pointer on the stealthed character to point to the direction of those who can see her (without indicating the range), barring bush of course.


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PsyRoseLight

Member

07-13-2011

How does this effect Akali?


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Burbinator

Senior Member

07-13-2011

I find it unlikely xypherous will find this post, but..

have you thought about making the fade duration dependent on the rank of the skill, along with a few other side benefits? Early game, the fade duration is less important when you're going to be roaming, but late game a shorter fade duration is a lot more useful in teamfights (always being unpredictable where you are).

Also gives some incentive to level the skill ^_^. Of course, if the skill is tied to something else, such as twitch's attack speed steroid, there's already incentive there. But it feels unintuitive for a skill to be gotten at level 1 for one reason, then levelled up for an entirely different reason (rather than greater stealth, in this case greater damage). You might say that sion's stun is similar if going AD, however, ranking it at least decreases the cd. From how you described it, it just feels a bit odd in that both aspects of the skill dont scale with its level very well.

thanks for any response =)


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SPD Red Ranger

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyRoseLight View Post
How does this effect Akali?
Akali is not long term stealth this patch is mainly towards Twitch and Eve....
Why wont people get this lol