@Morello/Xypherous: Can we get an update on the stealth remake please?

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Mizory

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Senior Member

07-12-2011

Xypherous i do have a quick question for you, now that the stealth rework is coming into play soon, as a twitch player im a bit concerned and have a few questions about some things. You said that Eve will be getting her hate spike stun back, and so I am wondering, Will twitch be getting any buffs at all?? He has been pushed off to the side and has been i guess pooped on due to the fact as he has been nerfed quite a bit. He has ok early game and he is ok in team fights due to his ult but nothing else now that stealth will be reworked and it is harder to "stalk" you enemy team and try and find someone to pick off and run away. So Will Twitch get any buffs during this rework? I at first did not like this at all when i heard about it but im a bit more interested in it and I am wondering if you would be able to give any peaks into an upcoming twitch or whatever?


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Lopen

Junior Member

07-12-2011

Forget Evelynn getting her stun back she needs her ult to give more hp back. Maybe not quite as much as it used to but as it is now at 150/225/300 it's almost unnoticeable. The reason she's much tougher to play now is her survivability went to hell-- smart players can adapt to a slow vs a stun.


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Lopen

Junior Member

07-12-2011

That being said I like the stealth remake idea assuming the "built in oracle's" radius isn't too big.


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d goldenglue

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Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. Okay, well, I suppose it's been a while since I've given an update so I'll chime in on this a little:

Following up from last time, the general problem(s) with long term stealth was:

1. There was no way for the opponents to get an inkling of how clever the stealth player was being, and thus there was no good way to get a sense of how that player operates.
2. Stealth is claustrophobic in the way that it makes you play.
3. Stealth gives very powerful scouting information while simultaneously hiding that information from your opponent.

We tried some iterations past the first few tests, with Paranoia, alternate resource bars, footprints, phasing and mark systems but in the end, we settled on the current system because it was the simplest solution for long-term stealth. In short: "Everyone has reduced Oracles, but Evelynn and Twitch are perma-stealthed."

Some Partial Stealth Details

Disclaimer: I fully understand this destroys a *lot* of the current stealth gameplay changes. Unfortunately, through lots of iteration, I was unable to capture the feeling of pure invisibility while in stealth while having fun gameplay. In the end, I decided to opt for a very simple system that was highly understandable over some more fiddling mechanics.

1. Evelynn and Twitch are permanently stealthed when they rank their level one stealth abilities. However, Evelynn and Twitch can be seen when they are within X units of an enemy champion (Slightly under vision range), or when they are within a true sight radius.

If they attack, they are revealed briefly for 2 seconds before going back into stealth.

This 'X' is being adjusted for feel between the two champions. 'X' is smaller than champion vision radius, so you can "stalk" an opposing champion, but it will be farther away.

2. Evelynn and Twitch have a "sight gem" above opponent's, telling them when the enemy can see them or not and whether they are "safe" (green sight gem), "warning - you are close to being seen, but still unseen" (yellow sight gem) or "being seen" (red sight gem.)

Results

Long Term Stealth, in this case, has been removed as a primary initiation mechanic but allows Eve and Twitch to cross minion vision and regular sight bubbles with impunity and sneak into brush patches by circle/stalk their opponents. Their opponents can likewise spot-check areas with their own reveal radius and create zones were stealth characters "probably aren't, otherwise they'd be seen."

The sight gem allows the Eve/Twitch player to take much of the guesswork out of figuring out when they were being seen or revealed and allows them to put more of their thoughts on clever positioning and sneaking around their opponents, especially for lane ganks.

This also lets us make them more combat oriented characters that don't immediately blow up on start. In general, this stealth has proven to be very difficult to use but allows characters to have some bluff gameplay and interesting circle/stalk gameplay in testing. Your characters can still scout, but at a highly diminished effectiveness (due to the increased range.)

In team fights, stealth proved to be less effective than before, so the character's combat viabilities are being looked at through reworks/remakes.

What is blocking us on releasing this:

1. There's a pretty big problem with the concept known as Oracle-Sweeping. We'd want to replace Oracle's elixir with someone that doesn't cause such weird gameplay but as to what would be a *good* replacement is a little up in the air.

2. General particle/kit rebalancing work - We need to heavily redo Evelynn and Twitch's kits and that comes different visuals and graphical effects.

What I am testing right now - Additionally

Sight wards as being partial motion sensors - Sight wards signalling when a hostile is moving nearby?
"Robot Chicken" scout drone
"Wriggles" for supports?

I probably shouldn't do this but as compensation, some sneaks..

Evelynn can have her stun back, because now you have advanced warning of her when she steps in. She might need a short-step-stun in order to successfully initiate. Testing required. Twitch has proven to be a slightly harder problem in internal testing.

As an aside: Hate spike is now awesome (for me, at least). Evelynn now has Champion prioritizing Lurker Spines. This makes her lane less bad.

As usual, feel free to ask questions for a little bit as I stick around. I don't know all the details of the full remake (as Live better understands that new environment). Sorry for the delay, but with Orianna/Champion pipeline and such, this has been somewhat of a lower priority for me.
If your doing that to eve, you better give her some big ass buffs cause she has to get into that eye range


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Jaystander

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopen View Post
Forget Evelynn getting her stun back she needs her ult to give more hp back. Maybe not quite as much as it used to but as it is now at 150/225/300 it's almost unnoticeable. The reason she's much tougher to play now is her survivability went to hell-- smart players can adapt to a slow vs a stun.
Shurelia has alrdy remarked that they have removed the heal from her ult and replaced it with a short term shield that is part of the active portion of her ult.


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Sir Fally

Junior Member

07-12-2011

the removal of the oracle will bring probably an item with an active to have "truesight", that wont be lost upon death. plz dont do that. that would screw akali (because she can only be at such a small area invisible) and remove the last of the ninja from beeing viable. you killed my poor little kennen before through removing zhonyas ring. let me keep my akali!


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Jaystander

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenglue View Post
If your doing that to eve, you better give her some big ass buffs cause she has to get into that eye range
Eve is having her kit retooled in a rather major way, they are even changing her passive, don't know to what but it is being changed.


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CheeseBurguer

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Xypherous and Shurelia

Really professionals by giving some sneakpeaks while explaining the changes so +1 for all of your comments guys


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Buizel

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Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post
That was removed, but she is given a powerful short duration shied (~2 seconds) upon casting her ulti which will reward players for stalking close to champions and attacking without using the ulti to close.
No heal? I'm sad to hear this. I felt like Eve's heal was the ONLY vampiric thing about her, since she is our vampire. Vlad is our hemomancer and Eve is our vampire but no heals anymore ):


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spectrevk

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Let me iterate, only long term stealth on Eve and Twitch will be affected by this change.

Teemo will be reclassified as being 'invisible' after 5 seconds.
Doesn't this kind of just make Teemo better than Twitch/Eve automatically? He goes invisible for as long as he isn't attacking, moves into the perfect position, then kicks off his attack.