Armor Pen vs. Attack Dmg

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Kritara

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Senior Member

04-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiar View Post
Armor Pen Runes > ATK dmg runes. ALWAYS.
False. Armor Pen runes are only better on heros that can auto attack for most of their damage or have physical damage based abilities(i.e Gangplank or Ezrael).

In Pantheon's case, all his abilities deal magic damage, so armor pen does nothing for those. It's also very rare that Pantheon get's to spend any amount of time auto attacking for a kill.

That being said, I'd look into Magic Pen runes for more ability burst. You'll find the magic pen runes give you more bang for yoru buck then atk damage.

As others have stated when dealing with reduction. First up is Reduction effects, i.e Black Cleaver. Next is % Penetration, i.e Last whisper. Finally static armor Pen.
Target has 200 armor
Black cleaver takes off 60 armor @ max stacks

Target now has 140 armor.
Last whisper kicks in now reducing 40% of it.

Target now has 84 armor.
You have 20 Armor pen from runes.

Target has 64 armor vs your physical attacks.

Magic reductions work the same way.
Trade black Cleaver for Abyssal Staff for reduction effects.

Void staff instead of last whisper for % penetration.

Penetration can come from runes, ghostly visage, etc.


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Lyrondak

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04-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritara View Post
In Pantheon's case, all his abilities deal magic damage, so armor pen does nothing for those. It's also very rare that Pantheon get's to spend any amount of time auto attacking for a kill.

That being said, I'd look into Magic Pen runes for more ability burst.
What.
The.
Hell.
Are.
You.
Talking.
About.

Don't give people wrong information. Spear shot and Heartseeker do PHYSICAL damage. Aegis and Grand Skyfall do MAGIC damage.



Also:
Armor Penetration > Attack Damage
I dunno what the above post is. I can prove it with math, but I thought this was common knowledge. There's only two scenarios where attack damage may be better than armor penetration.

1) You don't buy ANY damage items.
2) Armor Penetration effects are disregarded.

Scenario 1 is a really stupid paradox. You wouldn't rune armor penetration or attack damage if you don't plan on getting any physical damage increase. The math behind this is that a static amount of +damage will be more than % amount increased when your damage is really low.

Scenario 2 rarely happens. An example would be if your target has 10 armor and you have 30 armor penetration, it only penetrates 10 armor, rendering the other 20 useless. Or if you have someone with negative armor, then all your penetration is unaccounted for.


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Illilillili

Junior Member

11-26-2010

"armor penetration > attack damage"

That makes no sense. If you think that's true, supply the math.

Consider someone with base 100 attack damage attacking someone with base 300 armor. The attacker will do 100 * 100 / (300 + 100) == 25 damage.

Now assume the attacker has the choice between buying 100 units of attack damage or 100 units of armor penetration. With the attack damage choice, they will do: 200 * 100 / (300 + 100) == 50 damage. With armor penetration, they will do 100 * 100 / (300 - 100 + 100) == 33.33...

So, maybe AD is better against someone with a whole lot of armor. What if the defender just had 100 units of armor. Base damage is then 100 * 100 / (100 + 100) == 50 damage. With 100 extra units of damage: 200 * 100 / (100 + 100) == 100 damage. With 100 extra units of armor penetration: 100 * 100 / (100 - 100 + 100) == 100 damage.

So... If armor penetration exactly eliminates all the armor, it does as much damage as buying the equivalent amount of attack damage.


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zors

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11-26-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illilillili View Post
"armor penetration > attack damage"

That makes no sense. If you think that's true, supply the math.

Consider someone with base 100 attack damage attacking someone with base 300 armor. The attacker will do 100 * 100 / (300 + 100) == 25 damage.

Now assume the attacker has the choice between buying 100 units of attack damage or 100 units of armor penetration. With the attack damage choice, they will do: 200 * 100 / (300 + 100) == 50 damage. With armor penetration, they will do 100 * 100 / (300 - 100 + 100) == 33.33...

So, maybe AD is better against someone with a whole lot of armor. What if the defender just had 100 units of armor. Base damage is then 100 * 100 / (100 + 100) == 50 damage. With 100 extra units of damage: 200 * 100 / (100 + 100) == 100 damage. With 100 extra units of armor penetration: 100 * 100 / (100 - 100 + 100) == 100 damage.

So... If armor penetration exactly eliminates all the armor, it does as much damage as buying the equivalent amount of attack damage.
Your ability to necro a thread with outdated math has won first place!

Congratulations, you've won a downvote!


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dotexey

Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiar View Post
Armor Pen Runes > ATK dmg runes. ALWAYS.
actually,

if you have a base attack of 50 at game start, and 30 armor pen, then you attack someone with 16 armor, you do true 50 damage. Alternatively if you have atk dmg runes that boost your base attack to 65, you will hit the same 16 armor target for 57 damage.

57 dmg > 50 dmg
armor pen is not always better then atk dmg runes.

its only worth it if you don't penetrate past 0 armor or if you plan on focusing tanks. Late game when tanks have over 200 armor, your armor pen is not as useful anyway, which is why i always grab a last whisper and only last whisper for armor pen.


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jaunty22

Senior Member

05-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by zors View Post
Your ability to necro a thread with outdated math has won first place!

Congratulations, you've won a downvote!
I'm going to necro this for clarification. How and why is this math outdated? Unless there is some hidden mechanic I'm unaware of AD is better than APen on a point for point basis. Heck, even going with the .95 AD marks instead of the 1.66 APen marks is roughly the same (at least 99.5% as effective vs 60 armor targets, passes 100% as armor goes up), that's how weak apen is.

It is rather comical that armor penetration loses effectiveness vs armored targets, but brutalizer is still cost effective, and last whisper scales. So the only place where this is actually important would be with quints where the ratio is slightly better(compared to marks), making the AD superior except when you're fed to hell and doing obscene damage per hit.


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HotsauceShoTYME

Senior Member

05-26-2011

Armor pen runes are not always better than attack damage runes. Attack damage runes are good on ranged AD champs early cause they let you farm much more effectively. Minions don't have armor early on.

Basically it depends on what you want to accomplish with your rune page.


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xSJx

Senior Member

05-26-2011

Also keep in mind that they buffed damage runes, and that last whisper lowers the effectiveness of flat armor penetration


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evo17

Junior Member

05-26-2011

God **** it, now i'm confused!!

Is all ArPen marks still the way to go for Ashe?


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mana montana

Senior Member

05-26-2011

so i guess then on an AD eve build armor pen is bad because she can have such good armor reduction with her E and you could also get starks/black cleaver. pretty dam good chance all that will reduce all but mega armor stackers to negative


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