Sheen and it's Reactiion with MF's Double Up

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SinDur

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Senior Member

07-05-2011

This is probably intentional, but I'm not sure.

I tried building Sheen into Tri-force with MF in a match (fit well into the build I ended up with), and noticed that it makes her initial hit from the Q actually hit HARDER than the bounce back effect. This means that the ability is obviously not taking Sheen's proc effect into account on the second hit, which is fine, that is how it should work because that is how Sheen work.

The problem I have is that it means Double Up may not be reacting with Sheen properly, as the ability states it deals 115% of the damage dealt by the initial hit.

So unless the ability's description means 115% of the damage dealt by the abilities ratio
(165 + 1:1 AD), I think this should be looked at. Allowing Sheen to Tri-Force to become a powerful choice on MF could very well help her out without having to change anything major on her at all.

If anyone knows for sure that the description refers to ratio damage, please let me know. Otherwise, what do you all think?


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PhailRaptor

Adjudicator

07-05-2011

This happens because Double Up applies on-hit effects. The Sheen/Trinity proc is an on-hit effect. However, the Sheen/Trinity damage is calculated separately from Double Up's damage, and so does not "feed into" Double Up. It's merely along for the ride.

The same happens with Gangplank/s Parley and Ezreal's Mystic Shot as well.


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SinDur

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07-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhailRaptor View Post
This happens because Double Up applies on-hit effects. The Sheen/Trinity proc is an on-hit effect. However, the Sheen/Trinity damage is calculated separately from Double Up's damage, and so does not "feed into" Double Up. It's merely along for the ride.

The same happens with Gangplank/s Parley and Ezreal's Mystic Shot as well.
Right, that's what I was attempting to get at by saying the 115% damage goes off of it's ratio and base, not the total damage dealt.

So does that mean that abilities that apply on hit effects are essentially dealing base damage + ratio, + percentage increase from Sheen / Tri-force, and the percentage is simply added to the total instead of being a completely different source of damage?


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Gimpington

Member

07-05-2011

Yes, the damage proc from sheen/tri is just tacked on to the attack for the next hit. It doesn't crit, doesn't multiply, it's just a 100/150% base damage proc added to the your (base + ratio) x crit (if the ability/attack crits)


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Khalahn

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Senior Member

07-06-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinderfang View Post
Right, that's what I was attempting to get at by saying the 115% damage goes off of it's ratio and base, not the total damage dealt.

So does that mean that abilities that apply on hit effects are essentially dealing base damage + ratio, + percentage increase from Sheen / Tri-force, and the percentage is simply added to the total instead of being a completely different source of damage?
Pretty much. The bonus damage is added to lifesteal and such, but only the first hit of any multi-hit ability. If it applied to every hit, Renekton would be beyond broken with his stun.


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Klyern

Senior Member

07-06-2011

he is saying that the damage itself from shen counts as an on hit effect, not as damage, so its not calculated into the "damage" even tou it is.

This happens with other champions too. Specifically with crit champions. (sheen's effect will never crit.)

I tried a tryndamere build, using trinity i get around level 18, the idea WAS that using spin, hitting and mocking then hitting, would trigger the 150% sheen each time (bloodlust and ult too), and my base attack being 117 at level 18 that would count as a 175,5 attack from my sheen attack. plus the 30 from trinity, its 205.5 from a single item (80 more than a fully stacked occult blade) see i was using my brains there to make a trynd build, unlike some people.

The sad part is that IT DIDNT WORK, because sheen isnt factored into critical hits, with that i would have added some epic damage to my crit, but yes, it DOESNT work. it only adds 175 EXTRA damage, after crit, fair for all ad otherwise they would have nerfed it ages ago, i concluded that the damage each 2 seconds wasnt worth an item slot even w the other effects on trinity, since trynd's 3 skills are high cd and im not going to build cdr into a trynd lol.... because that 200 damage is 100 normal damage, 100 is transformed to 250 when having infinity and doing crit, so it would be inferior to say, an occult blade in a slot, or a bloodthirster, since trynd easily hits 100% crit.

So if you see a tryndamere using Trinity, just flame the noob. The item is expensive and any other ad or as item would be better for him.

So to anyone reading this, if you are building crit on any character, id advice you just dont bother with trinity even if your cooldowns are decent. trinity isnt for crit characters, its for low cd ad characters that are meant to spamm (like udyr)


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SinDur

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07-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalahn View Post
Pretty much. The bonus damage is added to lifesteal and such, but only the first hit of any multi-hit ability. If it applied to every hit, Renekton would be beyond broken with his stun.
Obviously, but my example is a bit more specific. I'm not saying I think the proc should be applied to both hits, but that the secondary hit does not deal 115% of the damage dealt to the first target when you use Double Up with Sheen / Tri-Force in your build. These two items actually make the first hit of Double Up hit HARDER than it's secondary one, and I was just wondering if that was intentional, which it seems to be.

On a side note, this is not a complaint thread, I was just fishing for information. I'm fine with how it works now, since if Sheen Tri-Force were to be allowed to apply to multi-hit spells or crit and what have you, the damage bonus and stats of each item would be lowered to compensate.


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Khalahn

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07-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinderfang View Post
Obviously, but my example is a bit more specific. I'm not saying I think the proc should be applied to both hits, but that the secondary hit does not deal 115% of the damage dealt to the first target when you use Double Up with Sheen / Tri-Force in your build. These two items actually make the first hit of Double Up hit HARDER than it's secondary one, and I was just wondering if that was intentional, which it seems to be.

On a side note, this is not a complaint thread, I was just fishing for information. I'm fine with how it works now, since if Sheen Tri-Force were to be allowed to apply to multi-hit spells or crit and what have you, the damage bonus and stats of each item would be lowered to compensate.
Well, if you read the tooltips in-game (which is where they count), it specifies that it does base damage + AD coefficient to the first target, and 115% of that amount to the second, with a little note at the end saying it applies on-hit effects.