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Math-theory Morde CDR build

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Zyren

Senior Member

07-04-2011

Quote:
TheMarijuanster:
CDR would win out over a longer time period then any other item. The longer you take it into account the stronger it gets.
That said, what team fight last a minute long? Most are over in a matter of a dozen seconds. Pure minion wise, you would pick the CDR, but for effective team play, you would justifiably get laughed or sneered at.



I'm going to see if I can get the numbers for a fight lasting 12 seconds in which both builds would spam their CDs, again ignoring ultimate. Although, if you want to include it, it's maybe 150-250 more damage in favor of the Deathcap build, depending on enemy HP/MR etc.


Over the course of a 12 second battle.

Morello's Build (Total AP = 300, Bonus AD = 60)
Q = 5 casts (12/2.41 = 4.98 + 1, so arguably 6)
W = 2 casts (12/7.2), However the second cast only gets about 4-5 seconds out of the 6 of its duration put to use.
E = 4 casts (12/3.6)

Q total damage = 380 x 3 x 5 = 5700 assuming 3 targets hit. 665 x 5 = 3325 if single.
W total damage = 140 x 10 or 11 = 1400 or 1540 (to each target)
E total damage = 425 x 4 = 1700 to each target in the cone.

Deathcap Build (Total AP = 494, Bonus AD = 60)
Q = 4 casts (12/3.2)
W = 2 casts (12/9.6), However the second cast only gets about 2-3 seconds out of the 6 of its duration put to use.
E = 3 casts (12/4.8)

Q total damage = 457.6 x 3 x 4 = 5491.2 assuming 3 targets hit. 800.8 x 4 = 3203.2 if single.
W total damage = 178.8 x 8 or 9 = 1430.4 or 1609.2 (to each target)
E total damage = 541.4 x 3 = 1624.2 to each target in the cone.


Looks like Morello's beats out Deathcap even in a 12 second duration fight. However, this depends on how Lichbane procs are being calculated. If you're spamming your spells, you probably are only proccing it off of each Mace of Spades.

This means that Morello's build gets 5-6 procs for 1500 or 1800 damage, while Deathcap gets 4 procs for 1976 damage.

Total damage done over a 12 second fight without ults.

Assuming 1v1

Morello's = at least (meaning it's based on 5 casts and 5 LB procs) 7925 vs. Deathcap = 8233.8

Against say, 3 targets.

Morello's = 5700 + 1400 x 3 + 1700 x 3 + 1500 = 16500 vs. Deathcap = 5491.2 + 1430.4 x 3 + 1624.2 x 3 + 1976 = 16685

Interesting stats to say the least. If you see anything wrong with my math, let me know.

*edit* As a poster suggested, I failed to take into account the initial cast that puts the spells on CD. This effectively means that each spell gets one more cast than I originally thought. I have fixed the math to reflect this.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

07-04-2011

Quote:
Zyren:
I'm going to see if I can get the numbers for a fight lasting 12 seconds in which both builds would spam their CDs, again ignoring ultimate. Although, if you want to include it, it's maybe 150-250 more damage in favor of the Deathcap build, depending on enemy HP/MR etc.


Over the course of a 12 second battle.

Morello's Build (Total AP = 300, Bonus AD = 60)
Q = 4 casts (12/2.41 = 4.98, so arguably 5)
W = 1 cast (12/7.2)
E = 3 casts (12/3.6)

Q total damage = 380 x 3 x 4 = 4560 assuming 3 targets hit. 665 x 4 = 2660 if single.
W total damage = 140 x 6 = 840 (to each target, assuming full duration damage)
E total damage = 425 x 3 = 1275 to each target in the cone.

Deathcap Build (Total AP = 494, Bonus AD = 60)
Q = 3 casts (12/3.2)
W = 1 cast (12/9.6)
E = 2 casts (12/4.8)

Q total damage = 457.6 x 3 x 3 = 4110.3 assuming 3 targets hit. 800.8 x 3 = 2402.4 if single.
W total damage = 178.8 x 6 = 1072.8 (to each target, assuming full duration damage)
E total damage = 541.4 x 2 = 1082.8 to each target in the cone.


Looks like Morello's beats out Deathcap even in a 12 second duration fight. However, the difference does depend on how Lichbane procs are being calculated. If you're spamming your spells, you probably are only proccing it off of each Mace of Spades.

This means that Morello's build gets 4-5 procs for 1200 or 1500 damage, while Deathcap gets 3 procs for 1482 damage.

Total damage done over a 12 second fight without ults.

Assuming 1v1

Morello's = at least (meaning it's based on 4 casts and 4 LB procs) 5975 vs. Deathcap = 6040

Against say, 3 targets.

Morello's = 4560 + 840 x 3 + 1275 x 3 + 1200 = 12105 vs. Deathcap = 4110.3 + 1072.8 x 3 + 1082.8 x 3 + 1482 = 12059.1

Interesting stats to say the least. If you see anything wrong with my math, let me know.



Thanks for the contribution! This is interesting to say the least.


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JJ Unbreakable

Senior Member

07-05-2011

  • If you want to soak damage, buy a tanking item.
  • If you want to deal damage, buy a Deathcap.
  • Randuin's Omen = bad. 5% cdr doesn't make up for the lack of stats and the active is conditional.
  • You'll have more spellvamp with the deathcap (+survivability)
  • Think about it. Deathcap + Lichbane.
  • If you don't have a Deathcap, scrap Lichbane for something else.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

07-05-2011

Quote:
JJ Unbreakable:
  • If you want to soak damage, buy a tanking item.
  • If you want to deal damage, buy a Deathcap.
  • Randuin's Omen = bad. 5% cdr doesn't make up for the lack of stats and the active is conditional.
  • You'll have more spellvamp with the deathcap (+survivability)
  • Think about it. Deathcap + Lichbane.
  • If you don't have a Deathcap, scrap Lichbane for something else.



Read the entire thread (or even post) before commenting please.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

07-05-2011

Quote:
Morello's Build (Total AP = 300, Bonus AD = 60)
Q = 4 casts (12/2.41 = 4.98, so arguably 5)
W = 1 cast (12/7.2)
E = 3 casts (12/3.6)


Zyren, just taking a second look at your calcs here, and you put "W" at one cast. What you're not considering is that assuming you press "W" at 0 seconds, you can press W again at 7.2 seconds, which counts as 2 casts of W, although you will not see a full duration of the 2nd cast in 12 seconds... however, you will see 2 more seconds of it (2 more ticks of damage) than you will with Deathcap.

Seeing as the final numbers are so close, this 2 extra ticks of damage may be enough to put Morellos even, or over the grand total of Deathcap.


_____

Also, a bit of a side note.. I have been leveling up my US account lately (I play mainly on EU with my euro friends.), and have been getting a lot of kids laughing at my build saying "LOL MANA REGEN ON MORDE."... Then following up said comments with "You need HP and AP."

I've had people say Rylia's (fair point), I've had people say FoN, and even Warmogs! It seems there is a misconception out there that Morde needs HP for some reason.

Just to dispell this misconception right here and now..

Morde's EFFECTIVE HP is HIGHER when you have between 100-150 armor and magic resist and 2200 hp, than his EFFECTIVE HP would be if he had 3000 HP and less than 100 MR and Armor.. Furthermore, building Armor/MR is much more cost effective and increases your damage output thanks to items like Lichbane and Abyssal Scepter.

I have a theory that Abyssal Scepter out-performs Rylia's in terms of both DPS AND Effective HP, but I'll have to do the actual math on it first.

That said..

I am not going to tell anyone how they SHOULD or SHOULD NOT build. I am not going to call anyones build "stupid" or "bad" or tell them they are a bad player for choosing to build however they do. What I will do is present cold hard facts supported by empirical evidence and mathematics in order to illustrate points which should be considered when you are deciding how to build your character. If you wish to throw the cold hard facts out the window and build how you enjoy building that is your perogative.

I think a good many players simply look up builds on Mobafire or LeagueCraft or Solomid and immediately jump on the bandwagon of the highest rated build... or they try a build out and if they happened to do well with it once or twice they accept that build as "the best". Very few people test a variety of different builds and even less people factor in mathematics. People are also often oblivious to the "Role" their character should play in a team comp, as many of them don't even know how to build a proper team comp.

How many Morde players here have gone into a Normal game and selected Morde, just to see someone who had previously selected a tank switch over to a Carry simply because they are under the misconception that Morde is a proper tank? Most people at low to mid level play do not even understand what a "true tank" is, or what a "bruiser/tanky dps" is.

I think we, as a community, should try to encourage more people to study their characters (and the games) mechanics more in-depth in order to min-max properly rather than simply copying a build off of MobaFire. The numbers do not lie. Min-maxing will never mislead you. People's misconceptions, aesthetics, and opinions will, however.

I am open to any suggestion and/or argument which contains substantial empirical evidence and mathematical calculations to support it. Stating opinions as though they are facts does not make your opinion fact, it only makes you look close-minded and ignorant.


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Zyren

Senior Member

07-05-2011

Quote:
Etherimp:
Zyren, just taking a second look at your calcs here, and you put "W" at one cast. What you're not considering is that assuming you press "W" at 0 seconds, you can press W again at 7.2 seconds, which counts as 2 casts of W, although you will not see a full duration of the 2nd cast in 12 seconds... however, you will see 2 more seconds of it (2 more ticks of damage) than you will with Deathcap.

Seeing as the final numbers are so close, this 2 extra ticks of damage may be enough to put Morellos even, or over the grand total of Deathcap.


Yeah, you're right. I'll look over all of it and recalculate it to make it reflect this, because it would hold true for all of his spells.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

07-05-2011

Rylia's vs Abyssal Scepter

Rylai's Crystal Scepter - 3,105g
+500 Health. +80 Ability Power UNIQUE Passive: Dealing spell damage slows the target's Movement Speed by 35% for 1.5 seconds (15% for multi-target and damage-over-time spells).

Abyssal Scepter - 2,650g
+70 Ability Power. +57 Magic Resistance UNIQUE Aura: Reduces the Magic Resistance of nearby enemy champions by 20.


Right up front, we can see that Abyssal has less AP on it, it has no HP (500 is a lot of hp, right?!), and it cost less and has MR and some aura which reduces MR of nearby champs by 20.

So what does all of this mean for Morde? Let's take a deeper look into the #'s.

First, since all we're doing is adding Magic resist here, I think it's fair to look at ONLY the effective health vs Magic when comparing these two items.

If I were testing a complete build I would compare the total effective health, but that just complicates the calculations we have to do.

The effective health vs Magic on Morde with Abyssal scepter with my runes/masteries and no other items, at level 18, is 4062.21.

The base HP is 1939. So I'm going to divide 4062 by 1939 and I get 2.09. This tells me that my HP vs Magic is boosted by a factor of ~2.1 thanks to my magic resist, which is 109.5.

Now lets do Rylia's.

My new Health is 2439 thanks to the 500 hp that Rylia's provides. My new effective health vs Magic is only 3719 because I no longer have that additional 57 magic resist which Abyssal gives me. So, already we can see that our effective health is LESS with Rylia's than it would be with Abyssal.

But this isn't even the extent of it.. I want to figure out how much Abyssal helps my Iron Man armor, because that is a part of Morde's survivability, which is what we're talking about here.. So, we're going to apply the same math rules to figure out the true difference between Rylia's and Abyssal.

3719 / 2139 = 1.5, with a total of 52.5 magic resist. (Rylia's)

We know that Mordes Iron Man armor at level 18 is 630 hp, and we now know that we have to multiply those by the factor for each item.

630 x 2.1 = 1323
630 x 1.5 = 945

Total Effective HP of Rylia's (945 + 3719) = 4664

Total Effective HP of Abyssal (1323 + 4062) = 5385

A simply calculation tells me that Abyssal provides me with 15% more effective HP than Rylia's against magic damage. The same rules apply to Armor.

Now, again, since it's not a fair comparison without considering the cost...

Rylia's provides 1.5 effective HP per gold.
Abyssal provides 2.0 effective HP per gold.

What about the extra 10 AP of Rylia's, does that count for anything?

Not when you consider that Abyssal is reducing the MR of all opponents around you by 20; which translates to about 20% more damage. 20% of 70 is 14. 70+14=84. You actually get more damage out of Abyssal... And this bonus extends to your entire team as long as you are in range of enemies they are targetting with magic.

What about the SLOW? Surely the slow on Rylia's makes it worth the extra 450gold!

All of Morde's abilities are AOE or DOT. The magical aspect of his Q is AOE, his W is AOE and DOT, his E is AOE, and his R is a DOT. This means AT BEST, you are getting a 15% slow for 1.5 seconds.

Is a 15% slow for 1.5 seconds worth 450 gold for an item which is outperformed in every other way by Abyssal Scepter? Remember... 15% more effective health, and 20% more damage for all of your teammates, and more damage for you as well. Your call.


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Zyren

Senior Member

07-05-2011

Quote:
Etherimp:
First, since all we're doing is adding Magic resist here, I think it's fair to look at ONLY the effective health vs Magic when comparing these two items.


This is where you made your mistake. I didn't actually bother to check to make sure your math was accurate. I'm assuming it is, but saying that you think it's fair to look only at vs. Magic is ridiculous.

Note, however, that I am not suggesting Rylai's or Abyssal is actually better than the other, or that either is mandatory in any Morde build.


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Inconvenience

Senior Member

07-05-2011

CDR is nice and all, until you realize you can be kited/cc'd/nuked.

I'd go for AP because that single attack I might only be able to get off would mean more.

Then again, I always have some kinda survivability item so I don't die that fast.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

07-05-2011

Quote:
Zyren:
This is where you made your mistake. I didn't actually bother to check to make sure your math was accurate. I'm assuming it is, but saying that you think it's fair to look only at vs. Magic is ridiculous.

Note, however, that I am not suggesting Rylai's or Abyssal is actually better than the other, or that either is mandatory in any Morde build.


For the purposes of this comparison, it is not ridiculous. Abyssal and Rylai's are both items which provide Survivability, AP, and Utility. Obviously, if you're not taking ANY Magical Damage, Rylai's 500HP is better... But when was the last time you played a game where the magic damage you took was not somewhere between 40-60% of the total damage taken all game? Of course, if you're matched up against a 4/5 AD Team, then going Rylai's over Abyssal might make sense; but any time the enemy team is a mixed bag of AD/AP, then Abyssal will outperform Rylai's.

If you want to compare "total effective health", again, we can do that as well, but to do so requires creating an entire build.. 1 with Rylai's, and one without.

The purpose of my post was to demonstrate that Rylai's (or any health item for that matter) always underperforms a Magic Resist or Armor item of equal or greater value (and often lesser) when it comes to survivability.

I DO however understand your point that Rylai's covers survivability vs all forms of damage, rather than just 1 type. My assumption upon making the post was that the subject would be purchasing armor items as well as Magic resist items.

I understand that optimally you want armor, magic resist, and some health. (Which is why I go with Abyssal and Randiuns Omen as my choices.)