Math-theory Morde CDR build

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Etherimp

Senior Member

07-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuhMuhMuhMyrick View Post
Morello's has mana regen and you have no mana. Factor in the waste of gold on a stat that is completely wasted on your hero.
20% CDR and 70AP. Name another item or combination of items which do this for less gold.

Ionian boots - 15% CDR, at the cost of 20 Magic Penetration, OR Tenacity + MR.

DFG - 15%, Also has mana regen.

Frozen heart - 20% CDR Has mana.

Mejai's - A viable option...assuming you can keep 20 stacks on it.

Randiuns - 5% CDR... But otherwise a good item for Morde.

Shurelyia's - 15% CDR, also has mana regen.

Soul Shroud - 10% CDR aura, mana regen, and hp.. not a Morde item.

Spirit Visage - Health (Not optimal for Morde), HP Regen (Good for Morde), MR (Good for morde), and only 10% CDR..

The rest are AD items..

Blue Buff - Usually goes better to an AP Carry, Jungler, Tank, or support.


Not all stats on all items need to benefit your character for your character to benefit from the item cost effectively. That logic is fail.

There's 350 mana on Lich Bane, but between movement speed, AP, MR, and the 100% bonus AP damage to your melee attacks I think we can all agree that Lich Bane is a good item on Morde.


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Chaoticon

Senior Member

07-03-2011

I would rather cast E once to clear a minion wave then twice. In team fights more burst = more shield. Also E was only calculated hitting one enemy? It hits EVERYTHING in front of it. Since it gains extra shield per hit CDR could be better...but when my ability is doing twice the damage it will give me more shield in 1v1 and 1v2 situations.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

07-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaoticon View Post
I would rather cast E once to clear a minion wave then twice. In team fights more burst = more shield. Also E was only calculated hitting one enemy? It hits EVERYTHING in front of it. Since it gains extra shield per hit CDR could be better...but when my ability is doing twice the damage it will give me more shield in 1v1 and 1v2 situations.

Well, for one, it won't do "twice" the damage.. But yeah it will do more in short bursts. Problem is, you have to wait a longer time before you can refill your shield again, which means your opponents have a longer time to take down your shield and deal HP damage to you. Since the shield maxes out at 630 HP at level 18, doing MORE than the required amount of damage to max your shield doesn't benefit you at all (Besides obviously lowering the HP of your target). That means there is a hard cap on how beneficial AP is for your shield.

At level 18, your Ironman shield absorbs 30% of all damage dealt, +18 hp for every target struck.

Against solo targets, 1 E with Morellos vs Deathcap:

Morellos - 431 damage -147 shield

Deathcap - 549 damage - 183 shield

That's about a 19.7% boost on shield and a 21.5% boost on damage with Deathcap over Morellos.. But with Morellos, you can cast the E again 20% faster, so it's a trade off.


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GeneralStan

Senior Member

07-03-2011

Burst >> sustained Dps.
Considering the number of spells you'll cast in an actual teamfight, death cap is a bigger impact every time.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

07-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralStan View Post
Burst >> sustained Dps.
Considering the number of spells you'll cast in an actual teamfight, death cap is a bigger impact every time.
That's a blanket statement and the latter part of the statement is just downright wrong.

Your typical AD carry is more sustained DPS while your typical AP Carry is more Burst DPS. Having a balanced combination of sustained / burst damage is beneficial for teamfights. The job of the AP carry is to sit back, wait for their chance to strike, then burst down with a spell combo. The job of an AD carry is to maintain a constant flow of damage without being cooldown dependent.

Morde is not an AP carry (although, he can be built that way). He's an AP Tanky DPS.. So where does he FIT on the team?

Tank - Disrupt/cc/initiate/soak damage
Support - Heal/utility
AP Carry - Burst damage
AD Carry - Sustained damage
Tanky DPS - Be threatening enough to keep the opposing team from targetting your AD and AP carrys while being able to take enough damage to survive. (See also: Garen, Jarvan, Nunu, etc)

Building Morde straight AP with no consideration for survivability is like building Anivia or Annie with no consideration for Mana or Mana Regen... It's the fuel which keeps you viable.

This is not to say Deathcap is NOT a viable item on Morde or that Morellos is catagorically BETTER.. As I expressed before: I am illustrating the advantages and disadvantages of each given the circumstances.

Burst is NOT always better for ALL characters. Do you want burst on Alister? No. You want to soak damage and disrupt enemies as much as possible. Morde wants to do enough damage but he has to continue to put out damage over longer periods of time because he is built to stay in fights for a longer period of time.

You can build Morde as an AP carry all day long if you want... But ask your average player if they had to choose between having a Morde AP carry teammate, or an Anivia/Annie/Ryze AP Carry teammate... I'm pretty sure most people would agree that Anivia/Annie/Ryze bring more to the team.

Now compare Tanky DPS Morde to Garen, Jarvan, or Nunu...and Morde can compete a little better.


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GeneralStan

Senior Member

07-03-2011

It seems like you're dedicated to the idea that your Cdr build is viable despite the wasted stats and comparatively worse burst. The big factor is that the Tome doesn't make an impact until you complete it basically where as buying a NLR immediately makes a huge impact.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

07-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralStan View Post
It seems like you're dedicated to the idea that your Cdr build is viable despite the wasted stats and comparatively worse burst. The big factor is that the Tome doesn't make an impact until you complete it basically where as buying a NLR immediately makes a huge impact.
Actually, Fiendish Codex provides CDR and builds into Morellos and it's cheaper than NLR? I don't see your point here.

And... This entire thread has been about Burst vs Sustainability. It's already been stated that there are advantages and disadvantages to both burst and sustainability.

So.. how is it NOT viable?

Wasted stats is not a valid argument. You get what you get and you pay what you pay. You either benefit from the item or you do not. Clearly, you benefit from 20% CDR and 70 AP.


Edit: I'm "dedicated to the idea" because there hasn't been a single response here which has provided a valid argument which concludes that Morellos is an INFERIOR item.. Only that it is a "Tradeoff" between burst and sustained DPS.


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bob000

Senior Member

07-03-2011

Why not DFG over Morello?


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Etherimp

Senior Member

07-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob000 View Post
Why not DFG over Morello?
DFG and Morellos is another trade off. DFG provides more burst, and morellos provides more sustained damage. Morellos CDR and AP are slightly higher but it lacks the active ability of DFG, and Morellos is slightly cheaper. Depending upon the team comp I'm up against and who I am teamed with, I sometimes go DFG over Morellos.

That said, DFG's active is amazing for comboing with your Ult + Ignite.


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Gumb E

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Senior Member

07-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etherimp View Post
Well, for one, it won't do "twice" the damage.. But yeah it will do more in short bursts. Problem is, you have to wait a longer time before you can refill your shield again, which means your opponents have a longer time to take down your shield and deal HP damage to you. Since the shield maxes out at 630 HP at level 18, doing MORE than the required amount of damage to max your shield doesn't benefit you at all (Besides obviously lowering the HP of your target). That means there is a hard cap on how beneficial AP is for your shield.

At level 18, your Ironman shield absorbs 30% of all damage dealt, +18 hp for every target struck.

Against solo targets, 1 E with Morellos vs Deathcap:

Morellos - 431 damage -147 shield

Deathcap - 549 damage - 183 shield

That's about a 19.7% boost on shield and a 21.5% boost on damage with Deathcap over Morellos.. But with Morellos, you can cast the E again 20% faster, so it's a trade off.
Thank you for taking the time to do the math for us. And thanks for the interesting idea!

I think naysayers are missing the part where Morello's is a competitive option regardless of the wasted stats. Ignore the mana, people. Just calculate the damage and the cooldown, the parts that Morde cares about. For the total price of either item, similar total damage numbers are being put out despite the "wasted stats".

Unless someone can prove him wrong, Etherimp has shown us that Morello's gives better damage and more shield over time. He readily admits that Deathcap = more damage RIGHT NAO. Some people complain that 1 minute is unrealistic.

How about 30 seconds? Can someone prove that Morello's doesn't pay off within 30 seconds? If not, then Morello's still helps you stay alive and stay dangerous longer. For those people who prefer to deal burst damage, Deathcap gives better damage right now. Don't worry! No one is calling you wrong or saying that Deathcap sucks. An alternative option is all that's being discussed here.

Don't Panic!

That said, I for one plan to experiment primarily with DFG as a combination burst & sustain option, in part because Kage's Pick is an affordable item to purchase at almost any time and it will help pay for the rest of my stuff.