Court of Public Opinion

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dawnrunner

Member

06-27-2011

There is a lot of angst against the Tribunal system along with claims of it being a failure and inadequate. There are also others who support it. I myself find that while the Tribunal system has many warranted benefits and potential it suffers from a vital flaw: decisions are based upon Public Opinion as dictated by those who judge the case.

The initial reaction to realizing this is to point out that it functions similarly to a 'jury system' however any who have served in a legal capacity know the juries are not in fact random but selected. This is an open forum of punishment. The best analogy to make for how the Tribunal functions is actually found in the history of Salem Massachuetts, also known as the home for Witch Burning.

If you take a few moments to think it over, the situations do fit. Some are acquitted, most are punished. As long as there is an inkling of suspicion the individual may be a witch (or leaver, or racist, or whatever) they will be punished. Some dig through the facts, others are content if they heard a rumor they flew on a broom one night.

Without any accountablility (false reporting being punished for example) and without any firm expectations from Riot (other than you disagreed with the public opinion on a case) there won't be any real outcome from the tribunal other than what we see currently -- an abused system that benefits no one.

TL;DR - Tribunal is nothing more than witch trials based on public opinion and little on fact. Only evidence which supports the prosectution (those wanting a ban) is presented. Pardons should be rare if ever due to this and we see it happening.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The Herpes Clown

Senior Member

06-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Well, you will be happy to know that this isn't the case. We have been validating results -- both people who were pardoned and those punished, and are very confident that things are fair. If anything, the tribunal results are too lenient.

- Zileas
The guys at Riot seem to disagree with you.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

drumsandfire

Senior Member

06-27-2011

If someone ends up in the tribunal system, it's because multiple players were offended/disrespected by them. People don't end up in the system for one report. If someone ends up with that many reports, chances are I don't want them in my game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dawnrunner

Member

06-27-2011

I would love to see the empirical data to back it up. Unfortunately that won't get released so all we have to rely on is anectodal data provided from either conversations and forums posts.

I have no doubt Zileas is presenting what he sees as factual and that is great. But what precentages are we talking? What's the actual number? What is the intended results?

It also doesn't address the core issue -- the reporting system. That's what this post is about, Reporting is what is flawed, not the tribunal.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SuperSpacePope

Member

06-27-2011

I have had a few games/cases where I only saw one report, with flimsy evidence.

Today I had great cases. I love the tribunal!
BTW: OP, I like your analogy to the Salem trials. While I agree on some levels that the analogy is apt, I think it distracts slightly from the scenario. Which is to say, this is a video game/E-sport; while the trials were ones of life and death consequences. Additionally, the reporter has no more to gain than personal satisfaction; no money, no land, no daughters :P
(I do understand that analogies break down when (over) analyzed)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mísanthropic

Member

06-27-2011

I'm offended by all of your words, because where I come from, every word in the english dictionary is a curse word in our language... because I'm from "Freeip", a city located in the Country of "Iwanna Banunao". I ride the Punishcle to work every mourning, and my favorite game is "Witch hunt". Some say I have a hideously malevolent laughter, but that is not so.

/reported!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dreampod

Senior Member

06-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnrunner View Post
There is a lot of angst against the Tribunal system along with claims of it being a failure and inadequate. There are also others who support it. I myself find that while the Tribunal system has many warranted benefits and potential it suffers from a vital flaw: decisions are based upon Public Opinion as dictated by those who judge the case.

The initial reaction to realizing this is to point out that it functions similarly to a 'jury system' however any who have served in a legal capacity know the juries are not in fact random but selected. This is an open forum of punishment. The best analogy to make for how the Tribunal functions is actually found in the history of Salem Massachuetts, also known as the home for Witch Burning.

If you take a few moments to think it over, the situations do fit. Some are acquitted, most are punished. As long as there is an inkling of suspicion the individual may be a witch (or leaver, or racist, or whatever) they will be punished. Some dig through the facts, others are content if they heard a rumor they flew on a broom one night.

Without any accountablility (false reporting being punished for example) and without any firm expectations from Riot (other than you disagreed with the public opinion on a case) there won't be any real outcome from the tribunal other than what we see currently -- an abused system that benefits no one.

TL;DR - Tribunal is nothing more than witch trials based on public opinion and little on fact. Only evidence which supports the prosectution (those wanting a ban) is presented. Pardons should be rare if ever due to this and we see it happening.
But these aren't based on suspicion or conjecture - chats logs provided clear evidence of verbal abuse, cs/kda/level show us afking/leaving, and an offensive name is listed right at the top of the page. If the data we get provided doesn't support the accusations then you should be voting pardon, and I think that most people do.

Final point - pardons are rare because most people who are refered to the Tribunal are legitimately bad apples. Players who don't misbehave and ruin games don't usually get refered to the tribunal and thus the Tribunal pool is biased towards guilt.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Olera144

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

06-27-2011

The evidence is what was said and, to the extent it can be informed through words, done. That doesn't always support the prosecution though for the majority of cases I've seen so far it does. Those who are wrongfully accused will be acquitted.

At this moment it's a matter of faith and we probably will never get much in the way of empirical data though maybe we'll be surprised one day. Those who feel wrongly accused and wrongly punished come her frequently to tell whoever will listen that the system wrongly punished them. Those that are either acquitted or have made the reports rarely seem to frequent this subforum. This definitely paints the tribunal in an unjust light.

You say reporting someone is a flawed system. What would you suggest we replace it with? Who is a better judge of whether or not they felt someone ruined a game than the person themself? They don't (or won't) get to sit on the jury those are other people in the game.

There have been suggestions to automate the whole system. You are punished by an established set of rules. If you're over X you're a feeder. If you're under Y you AFK'd. You said **** 7 times this game that's verbal harassment is how I understand the system. I think system is flawed in that it is too rigid. If the rules are known then the loopholes are as well. What do you suggest then?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Beaumains

Senior Member

06-28-2011

I will agree with one implication of the original post: and that is that we really don't get enough information a lot of the time. We don't even get the map played; which can make all the difference when considering those 2 allies & enemies who put in the report (not, of course, that the number of reporters is solid evidence).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CJGoomba

Senior Member

06-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnrunner View Post
There is a lot of angst against the Tribunal system along with claims of it being a failure and inadequate. There are also others who support it. I myself find that while the Tribunal system has many warranted benefits and potential it suffers from a vital flaw: decisions are based upon Public Opinion as dictated by those who judge the case.

The initial reaction to realizing this is to point out that it functions similarly to a 'jury system' however any who have served in a legal capacity know the juries are not in fact random but selected. This is an open forum of punishment. The best analogy to make for how the Tribunal functions is actually found in the history of Salem Massachuetts, also known as the home for Witch Burning.

If you take a few moments to think it over, the situations do fit. Some are acquitted, most are punished. As long as there is an inkling of suspicion the individual may be a witch (or leaver, or racist, or whatever) they will be punished. Some dig through the facts, others are content if they heard a rumor they flew on a broom one night.

Without any accountablility (false reporting being punished for example) and without any firm expectations from Riot (other than you disagreed with the public opinion on a case) there won't be any real outcome from the tribunal other than what we see currently -- an abused system that benefits no one.

TL;DR - Tribunal is nothing more than witch trials based on public opinion and little on fact. Only evidence which supports the prosectution (those wanting a ban) is presented. Pardons should be rare if ever due to this and we see it happening.

This has been read, re-read and read once more by other banned players.
Riot has looked thoroughly into the Tribunal.

These threads are dead on posting.

/thread


123