Atack damage vs crit % vs Crit dmg ! Whats better?

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ebonclaw

Senior Member

04-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
You can get massive crit easily enough through items, armor pen makes those crits hurt more >.>



Kat gets spell pen >.>
Maybe AP Kat does. Somehow, I don't think AP Kat is on topic for a discussion of what sorts of physical damage runes are good.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Voidgolem

Senior Member

04-12-2010

Considering all of Kat's skills deal magic damage, I'd say it's a safe bet >.>


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BoogiepopPhantom

Member

04-12-2010

Man, I'm a bit tired of everyone always saying armor pen without any thought or explanation behind it. Do some math guys, it ain't hard.

Look, Armor has diminishing returns, the more you get, the less effective it is to get more. With me so far? Therefore armor penetration is the exact opposite. The more you have the more effective it is to get more. Also the less armor the enemy has the more effective armor penetration is.
Armor penetration is therefore best early game when low armor is common, and much less effective late game when high armor is common. It will give you a high percent damage increase early when your damage is low, and a low percent damage increase late game when your damage is high. You can get people below zero armor.

Critical chance is a percent increase in damage. This is therefore not as good early game when your damage is low, and is much better late game when your damage is high.

Critical damage is also a percent increase in damage, so it is better late game. It also suffers if you don't get critical chance items. If you don't plan on getting some crit chance items then don't use these runes. If you plan to build for high crit chance, then crit damage runes give the best damage output per rune, but only after you get a good crit chance item set.

Crit chance and crit damage work very well together, and you should always get them together either with items or runes or masteries. Don't ever get just one.

Attack speed runes are a percent increase in AS so the higher your base attack speed the better the runes get. These runes also are better late game, when your base attack speed is at it's highest.

flat Damage runes are generally garbage, but damage quintessences are decently good. These can be as good early game as armor pen, but late game they aren't much. think of it as a percentage damage increase. If your hero starts with 45 damage, then 3 quints of damage can add 6.75 damage which is a 15% damage increase, on just the quints. 3 quints of desolation only give you 11.7 armor pen, which is generally less than an 8% damage increase. Marks of flat damage on the other hand are 7 times less effective for flat damage, so I'd avoid them. Usually a quintessence is about twice what the primary rune is, but for flat damage it is 7 times better which shows the marks of flat damage are trash.

So the question you should answer before picking runes is, Are you getting runes to help your early game or your late game? And what items are you getting?

If you are planning to get phantom dancer and infinity edge as 2 of your first items, then extra crit chance and crit damage runes will rock mid to late game.

If you are not planning to get crit chance items then avoid crit damage runes like the plague.

If you have a hard time early game, then flat damage quints, and armor penetration marks are probably the best way to go. Only get flat damage quints on low damage heroes, any hero with decent to high damage at level 1 would benefit more from armor penetration quints.

In a similar way flat health quints are very good early game, but negligible late game. an extra 90 health is great when you only have 500, but when you have 2000 it doesn't really make a difference.

I generally take half my runes to help early game, and the other half are to help my late game build.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

dawi

Senior Member

04-12-2010

Armor Pen.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EnderA

Senior Member

04-13-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoogiepopPhantom View Post
Man, I'm a bit tired of everyone always saying armor pen without any thought or explanation behind it. Do some math guys, it ain't hard.

Look, Armor has diminishing returns, the more you get, the less effective it is to get more. With me so far? Therefore armor penetration is the exact opposite. The more you have the more effective it is to get more. Also the less armor the enemy has the more effective armor penetration is.
Armor penetration is therefore best early game when low armor is common, and much less effective late game when high armor is common. It will give you a high percent damage increase early when your damage is low, and a low percent damage increase late game when your damage is high. You can get people below zero armor.

Critical chance is a percent increase in damage. This is therefore not as good early game when your damage is low, and is much better late game when your damage is high.

Critical damage is also a percent increase in damage, so it is better late game. It also suffers if you don't get critical chance items. If you don't plan on getting some crit chance items then don't use these runes. If you plan to build for high crit chance, then crit damage runes give the best damage output per rune, but only after you get a good crit chance item set.
(Shortened quote.)

And I'm tired of people thinking Crit Dmg is better late game. Here's why you shouldn't get crit dmg: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=70173

You said "Do some math guys, it ain't hard," but you didn't do any math to justify your claim that crit dmg/crit chance are any good.

True. Armor penetration has a decreased effect the more armor they have. It still beats out crit dmg until around 110 armor, and then if you get last whisper armor penetration beats it out all the way up to around 180 armor. Infinity Edge also increases the point to which armor penetration is better as well. AND THIS IS ALL ON A CRIT. THIS ISN'T INCLUDING ALL THE NON-CRIT ATTACKS!

Crit chance runes give you approximately 1% crit chance for each 2 armor pen you would otherwise have. I don't have as nearly a big problem with people taking them over armor pen. At the very least, they're great on Tryndamere (of course, he's quite UP at the moment.) Or you can make the argument that you want burst damage and like the crit chance (crit damage doesn't make the cut even for burst damage.) If you're going for DPS, then:

Avg Dmg = Base * ((1 - crit chance) + (crit chance * crit dmg)) * 100 / (100 + armor - armor pen)

So if you have high crit chance already, you get reduced relative damage output from crit chance. If they have high armor, then you get less relative output from armor pen. Makes sense. So a great reasonable case for crit chance:

(14% crit chance vs. 29 armor pen)
IE, lethality, sunder, base crit chance of ~4%, high armor (say, 140 after Last Whisper if you have one.)

Base * ((1- .38) + (.38 * 2.6)) * 100 / (100 + 140 - 6) = 68.7% base damage on average
Base * ((1- .24) + (.24 * 2.6)) * 100 / (100 + 140 - 35) = 67.5% base damage on average
Ratio: 101.79% damage in favor of crit chance.

For armor pen:

No IE, 8% crit from item, lethality, sunder, base crit of ~4%, medium armor (say 60)

Base * ((1- .26) + (.26 * 2.1)) * 100 / (100 + 60 - 6) = 83.5% base damage on average
Base * ((1- .12) + (.12 * 2.1)) * 100 / (100 + 60 - 35) = 90.56% base damage on average
Ratio: 108.45% damage in favor of armor pen.

So you're giving up around 8.5% damage early-mid for around 1.8% damage late. Your choice. I'd go with armor pen.

tl;dr: ARMOR PEN.