Attention all Carries:

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xrats

Senior Member

04-08-2010

IE>BC.

People that rush BC play low elo games.

First of all,BC is useless vs high armor enemies,so you cant use it all the time.Most people rush BC and then Last Whisper.Dont do this mistake.Its a bad combo.If you use both together u waste the Last Whispers armor pen ability.So,you either build one or another.

Secondly,BC is used when your enemies armor is low and your team has other dmg dealers.The general idea is to lower the armor of an enemy while your mates hit him at the same time.This way,you will all deal more dmg and kill him sooner.If your enemy doesnt have other dmg dealers dont build BC,prefer other items that are ok even if you hit the enemy alone(IE and Bloodthirster are better this way and in general).

Thirdly,BC isnt as effective as IE because it needs some hits in order to get all of its maximum ability.That means that you have to hit the same enemy some times in a row.This isnt so practical vs good opponents or in 5v5 battles.There will be many occasions which wont allow you to do this.Some opponents will escape or retreat while others while attack you,thus forcing you retreat and stop hitting.On the other hand,other items will get you better results while they will deal more dmg at the same time and they wont require anything else to do so.

Lastly,IE + armor pen runes > BC + armor pen runes.critical + armor pen deal more dmg than armor reduction and armor pen.IE is also better for harrasing.


So,overall,BC isnt a bad item but there are simply more good choices that make it a bad choice to rush it as a first item.


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malphismia

Senior Member

04-08-2010

I was just wondering, don't neutrals and turrets have armor (I heard this somewhere) and BC might be useful when you're taking turrets?

Either way, I take IE. lol it is necessary core item for Shaco (although I'm not usually the carry). I don't get either IE or BC for Nidalee though.


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blackjackz

Senior Member

04-08-2010

I also dont support the idea to rush BC, but IE is not a better item to rush.

BC and last whisper is a good combo, not a bad one. But only when your target has more than 200 armor. They stack. Go see mechanic page. With only last whisper and armor pen runes, target with 140 armor are reduce to around 45+, that's near to 25% reduction from your damage, which also affect your crit. With a BC, it takes away that 25% reduction.

BC needs to hit a few times in order for armor reduction. so does IE needs to hit a few times in order for it to crit. (and 20% crit chance means you have to hit it around 5 times in average in order for it to have 1 crit, in lv 18, it's around 3-4 times since your character have around 10% crit chance). But 5 times, your BC did full stack already and the 6, 7, 8, 9 times you hit it you will still have the advantage. Of course in reality you dont get to hit over 7 times so often and so does hitting ppl with IE.

You cannot kill a builded tank with IE or BC, but with the money spent on rushing IE, the tank on the other side got some decent items already.

I dun think ppl in high elo will rush for an IE.

Only when your character is more developed(with more items), IE is a better choice. but stand alone as a first item, no.


quote from mechanic page:
Q: What order is armor penetration/MR penetration applied in? (Credit to TiberiusAudley)

A: From top to bottom

Armor/MR Reduction
% Based Armor/MR Penetration
Flat/Linear Armor/MR Penetration


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malphismia

Senior Member

04-08-2010

For shaco and other huge critters (tryndamere), IE is a good item to rush. At least I do with AD Shaco.

You already have 100% chance to crit with deceive. So 250% crit damage + 80% base damage from sheen + 25% damage attacking from behind (FROM FIRST HIT ALONE)= Good damage. You're not going to be hitting someone for that long for BC stacks to kick in as Shaco either.


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AIM7Sparrow

Senior Member

04-08-2010

Yo guys, read the first page carefully. I never said rush IE first item. I said when the time comes to choose a high damage item, choose IE over BC. there's a difference.


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blackjackz

Senior Member

04-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperness View Post
Yo guys, read the first page carefully. I never said rush IE first item. I said when the time comes to choose a high damage item, choose IE over BC. there's a difference.
Now i see, some how i got the impression that we were discussing about first item. I actually agree with that lol. I do use IE somewhere most of my games, but not BC.

On a side note tho: If you use IE and not planning to get more crit chance, without Last whisper, a BC do more avg dmg on target lower than 150 armor, With Last Whisper, BC only do more damage with target at 150-220 armor.


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Ennbeard

Senior Member

04-08-2010

usually Burst damage is better than DPS. IE gives Carries more burst if they crit.

Plus, aren't you guys laving Crit chacne out of the equation? Why would you do that? IE gets better the more Crit chance you have.


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Dumbandstupid

Junior Member

04-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperness View Post
Wow I'm shocked that everyone so far thinks black cleaver is a better first item. Seriously, it's not. You can do the math for the cost and compare for yourself.
Perhaps you should learn math first?

With armor penetration:
Black Cleaver + Fortitude + Agility > Black Cleaver + Recurve Bow > B.F. Sword + Recurve Bow + Recurve Bow > Black Cleaver + Cloak of Agility > Infinity Edge

Without armor penetration:
Black Cleaver + Fortitude + Agility > Black Cleaver + Recurve Bow > Black Cleaver + Cloak of Agility > B.F. Sword + Recurve Bow + Recurve Bow > Infinity Edge

Black Cleaver + Fortitude + Agility is cheapest. The other 4 are close in cost.

The closest match between item stats is the Black Cleaver + Cloak of Agility and Infinity Edge.
75 damage 18% critical and armor debuff versus 80 damage 20% critical and critical passive.
Hero will have 35 armor penetration and 50% critical. Reasonable stats for level 10 enemy will be 50 armor + 12 with Aegis.
With 50% critical Infinity Edge passive adds 1/6 bonus DPS. After 1 strike with cleaver you get about 10% bonus DPS, after 2 strikes you get about 23% bonus DPS and 27% after 3 strikes.
So with the weakest item combination with Black Cleaver you will still be on par with Edge.


You talk about math but you ignore it completely. Perhaps a few people will understand that at most Infinity Edge's unique passive will add 25% more DPS. Black cleaver on the other hand can add up to 60% DPS (Possibly more, I'm unsure of how this game handles negative armor values). When an enemy hero reaches 200 armor, 5 stacks of armor debuff will equal the passive of Infinity Edge with 100% critical. Moreover, the armor debuff applies for your team as well. This also makes it quicker and thus safer for your team to do certain elite neutral creeps.

Combining armor penetration runes/sunder mastery you will find that as STANDALONE ITEMS Infinity Edge is better than Black Cleaver during EARLY game. However, Black Cleaver is much cheaper than Infinity Edge and so when you add another reasonable DPS item, to fill the gold gap, it will edge out over Infinity Edge at any point of the game.

To reiterate, WITH OR WITHOUT ARMOR PENETRATION RUNES BLACK CLEAVER IS BETTER THAN INFINITY EDGE. A few heroes may want the Edge because they either are guaranteed criticals or need criticals do something else. However, if those heroes wanted better DPS (For themselves AND the team) they too would get Black Cleaver.


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Azing

Senior Member

04-08-2010

If your not a crit focused carry then Black Cleaver > IF. IF usually is better but if you apply like War applying stacks with his ult or other heroes that have similar effect, Black Cleaver can be beast.

Crits are beast in this game its the main reason IF is considered so good. If your playing a hero that isn't meant to be crit happy then Black Cleaver will just be the better option if you had to pick between two.


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Stakt

Member

04-08-2010

From my experience, it depends on whether you want your carry to be more useful in midgame or lategame. Here's the quick version: BC is the cheaper, midgame-viable item. Getting it first enables you to make the best contribution to teamfights by the time they first start occurring. On the other hand, for a true lategame-dominating carry, it makes more sense to do a crit-based build that capitalizes on IE's UNIQUE passive.

Take Tristana as an example (she is my main). Suppose your first two items are berserker's greaves and black cleaver. That's 3895 gold, and a mid solo you should have that before the roaming phase starts. Cleaver is a good choice on Trist because she can stack the debuff quickly with Q. This item might be just what your team needs to win that first 5v5 encounter and snowball to victory from there.

On the other hand, if you're building a true lategame carry, a crit-based build is the way to go. Notice that attack damage, attack speed, crit chance, crit damage all contribute multiplicatively to your overall DPS. My lategame tristana build starts with berserker boots, avarice blade (I think more than one is overkill), BF sword, zeal, IE, phantom dancer. This gives you high attack speed and devastating crits that occur about 70% of the time. In my experience, Trist's autoattack doesn't really demolish lategame enemies until she's finished these items -- and they already cost 9075 gold. You won't have that before 30:00 unless you're doing especially well. And the game might already be over by then. However, the advantage of this build is that you can often lead your team to victory even if it looked like you were losing -- you will be getting kills and it won't be long before you have even more items (such as bloodthirster, frozen mallet, black cleaver, last whipser, or a second phantom dancer) and become totally unstoppable.