Last Whisper vs Black Cleaver

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wildfire393

Senior Member

04-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiftstar88 View Post
True, but armor pen/reduction isn't the same as straight added damage. I'll see if I can't get a red name to answer the question for sure, but until then I'm going to assume that BC and LW work on towers as well.
LW works on towers. Black Cleaver does not. This is because towers are immune to Debuffs, and BC applies a debuff.

Black Cleaver adds more DPS just from the 75 damage it does. However, you are much better off upgrading that BF Sword to an IE (I just ran these calcs, and with no other items it takes 9 attacks for BC to catch up in damage to IE, and with LW BC is never as good). However, LW applies to towers, and it does not require multiple hits to become effective. Additionally, LW scales your other damage better, and it scales with the enemy's armor as well. If you have an IE already, your total DPS is higher against any target that has fewer than 3 stacks. And honestly, if you have an IE and a Last Whisper, most squishy targets won't survive more than 4 attacks. And tanks will take more damage from the LW anyways.


Also Armor Pen DOES apply to abilities that deal physical damage, such as Parrrley, Mystic Shot, Volley, Heartseeker Strike, etc.


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LeChevalier

Junior Member

01-15-2012

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=2579850#2579850
LW only affects skills that apply red-lizard buff.. Thus flat arpen (brutalizer) or armor reduction (black cleaver) is actually more effective for AD casters such as talon, riven, and pantheon


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ForeverLaxx

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Senior Member

01-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeChevalier View Post
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=2579850#2579850
LW only affects skills that apply red-lizard buff.. Thus flat arpen (brutalizer) or armor reduction (black cleaver) is actually more effective for AD casters such as talon, riven, and pantheon
Necro Thread, nothing to see here.


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divsky

Senior Member

01-15-2012

Last whisper is for taking down tanks and turrets. Flat armor penetration/reduction of any kind though is actually far more effective on squishies than it is on tanks. I hate reading guides that suggest flat armor penetration as an effective counter to an armor stacking tank, because it is not. It's almost worthless against tanks.

Think about it. Who is going to be most harmed by the -45 armor from a black cleaver? A tank who has their armor reduced from 200 to 155, or the squishy who has their armor reduced from 50 to 5? The tank has their armor % reduced from 67% to 61% while the squishy has their armor % reduced from 33% to 5%. Because armor has diminishing returns the closer the number is to 0 the more important every point becomes. And remember that armor can be taken into negative numbers, actually amplifying damage taken.

Also last whisper is more effective than the numbers would suggest, because most people who build are going to have the natural 10% armor penetration from their masteries. So Last Whisper is really giving you 50% armor penetration and should be beating black cleaver on any champ that's stacking armor.

tldr:
Tanks - Last Whisper
Squishies - Black Cleaver.


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Killzerz

Senior Member

01-15-2012

A) ArPen % is multiplicative and not additive. So actually you would have 46% ArPen if it is multiplicative if you took the ArPen in the offense tree.

B) Squishies tend to have around 75~ armor lategame, maybe more if their team has an Aegis. The tradeoff between BC and LW is small.

C) You need to hit someone 4 times before BC has its full penetration. Most squishies do not need to be hit 4 times until they are dead, making it so LW=BC at killing squishies.

D) LW applies to skills that do physical damage, meaning Sivir's Q and W do more damage.

E) Most of the time you will be hitting tanky-DPS instead of squishies, and seeing as how both of you will stay in the back of your teams and the tanky-DPS will be in the middle of them means LW wins again since tanky-DPS usually have more than 110 armor, more like 200 lategame.

F) Most pros take flat AD over ArPen runes since it makes last hitting more effective and doesn't matter too much compared to ArPen in the laning phase. Meaning once someone hits 110~ armor LW becomes a more attractive option, especially since you don't need to hit them 4 times to do max damage.

G) LW is cheaper (small advantages add up).


LW beats BC in almost every case, watch streams like Chaox and Doublelift, they always always always take LW.


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Raiku0728

Senior Member

01-15-2012

If it were up to me i would go with black clever but thats just me


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Astral Yorae

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Senior Member

01-16-2012

I have the following thumb rules (as they are thumb rules, there are exceptions):

1) If I am playing an AD champ that auto attacks a lot, I need attack speed. Black Cleaver and flat pen.

2) If I am playing a champ with Armor Reduction debuffs and some more AD guys in my team, I get Black Cleaver and Stark, or one of them and I ask other carry to use the other. Some examples here are Taric (-95 armor) and Nasus (-105 armor).

3) If I play a champ that applyes on-hit effects on skill (Ez, Plank, Nasus, and others), I get Last Whisper.

4) If I play a champ that uses a lot of physical damage skills, from what I know and tested, Last Whisper won't work (hope to be wrong here). So, I prefer to lower armor too. So, I get Black Cleaver. Some examples here are Phanteon, Caitlyn, Riven.

If you want, you can try to use my calculator to see which option is the most effective for your case:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1337522


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Slayer1557

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Senior Member

01-16-2012

Astral. Armorpen works on all physical damage skills, not just ones that apply On-Hit effects.

From what I found, having more flat armor pen/reduction, pushes the breakoff point between BC and LW higher and higher. I have a build for Ezreal, I have Armorpen marks and quints, the armorpen masteries, and one of either Last Whisper, or Black Cleaver. Black Cleaver is better against anyone with armor 240 or less, and Last whisper is better for anyone with more than 240 armor.

Other things to consider though, is that Mystic Shot (With triforce) has a different armor breakoff point. LW is better 150 armor or higher, and BC is better less than that. Also, BC is better for your team if you have more AD champs, but it also costs ~600 more gold.

If you don't have as much flat armor pen/reduction (such as less Armorpen from runes), that makes last whisper more worth it.

Also, if your team has a Starks Fervor, then BC is slightly more worth it, because the breakoff point is pushed to about 260 armor.


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Astral Yorae

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Senior Member

01-16-2012

I think I read somewhere that the Last Whisper don't work with physical skills (only if it acts like a hit - apply on-hit ffect).
When I played Cait with it (some months ago, never used it on her anymore), it didn't seem to help with her ultimate damage.
As the forum is a mess, I doubt I will find the post again, but it's there somewhere.


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Slayer1557

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Senior Member

01-16-2012

Ah, you are correct. I never knew that until I looked it up on the wiki just now. It links to a post by Phreak commenting on that.

Well... good to know.

EDIT: Well, nevermind, I read further in the thread, and it seems it was changed in a patch
V1.0.0.103:
Unique armor penetration now functions with abilities (but still not against turrets)