Last Whisper vs Black Cleaver

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Swiftstar88

Senior Member

04-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
For Sivir, Last Whisper would be the better of the two. The bounces on her attacks do physical damage, which will benefit from Last Whisper's armor penetration, whereas only the original attack would proc the armor reduction of Black Cleaver.

Sivir already gets a large boost to her attack speed from her ultimate, though, so getting even more attack speed (instead of damage or even crit, if you're building her for straight DPS instead of support-y) is kind of 'meh'. Still, Last Whisper is a very solid item for its cost.
Except you're missing the point of Sivir. If you want to play her as a carry, sure, take LW, but you might as well pick a better carry in that case. If you want to play her as a tower destroyer, take BC.

Why? Because while LW will allow you to attack faster and penetrate the turret's armor, BC will lower the turrets armor for both you and that creep wave you build pushing up to said tower. The armor REDUCTION will allow your creeps to hit harder, too, and combined with your ult, the tower will drop much faster than with LW instead.

Besides, like you said, Sivir doesn't need any more attack speed, and the armor reduction will help your other carries in team fight as well, and that carry support is the only other main role Sivir should play.

If you don't like that, play an actually carry and leave the tower destroyer to those who do it right.


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L0V0

Junior Member

04-07-2010

Get them both!!


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

04-07-2010

I don't think it works on towers. But I dunno.


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blackjackz

Senior Member

04-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballpooner View Post
Firstly, you need to remember the order of how armor penetration is applied in this game. Armor reduction (like the Black Cleaver) is applied first, then Armor Penetration (runes, Brutalizer, etc.), and finally % Armor Penetration (like Last Whisper).
ummm, not exactly.

From mechanic section
Q: What order is armor penetration/MR penetration applied in?
(Credit to TiberiusAudley)

A: From top to bottom

Armor/MR Reduction
% Based Armor/MR Penetration
Flat/Linear Armor/MR Penetration

but i'm lazy to do more calculations, maybe you can do that for me =)


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Swiftstar88

Senior Member

04-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
I don't think it works on towers. But I dunno.
Taken from the website:

+75 Attack Damage Passive: Physical attacks reduce your target's Armor by 12 for 5 seconds, (maximum 5 stacks).



Tell, me, since towers have armor, why wouldn't BC affect them?


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

04-07-2010

Because most debuffs and targeted spells don't work on 'em?

Neither does Sword of the Divine or Stacked deck, since a hotfix or two ago.


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Swiftstar88

Senior Member

04-07-2010

True, but armor pen/reduction isn't the same as straight added damage. I'll see if I can't get a red name to answer the question for sure, but until then I'm going to assume that BC and LW work on towers as well.


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Pizowned

Junior Member

04-07-2010

I usually get a starks regardless of the team fight.

My item build goes like this

Chalice
Grieves
Starks
BC
and if it makes it this far i usually just grab something fun like phantom/BR/infinity or frozen mallet. whatever i feel like i need more. I usually do pretty rad alternated skills Q W lvling and getting E at lvl 5 and maxing last.


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Swiftstar88

Senior Member

04-07-2010

You should grab Aegis in there somewhere as well. It buffs your allies AND creeps, which helps a lot on tower pushes. Also, Grieves suck, worst boots in the game, and Sivir already has plenty of attack speed. Best boots for her are Ninja Tabi or Merc Treads, depending on the enemy team.

Otherwise, build looks well enough.


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Cyrenic

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Senior Member

04-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiftstar88 View Post
True, but armor pen/reduction isn't the same as straight added damage. I'll see if I can't get a red name to answer the question for sure, but until then I'm going to assume that BC and LW work on towers as well.
Voidgolem is correct, you can't debuff towers so BC doesn't work on towers. I recall reading red posts confirming this, but I don't have the time to go look them up :P.