Why the Jax nerf?

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HandheldBrandon

Senior Member

06-21-2011

Edit: 8-21-11
Gunblade is being nerfed according to the patch preview no numbers have been stated but this will affect Jax's teamfight sustainability regardless.

Not only do i find this the wrong way to go (we all know Riot makes poor decisions sometimes.) But instead of fixing the main problem (Akalis sustain with the item) they go and nerf the item which not only will affect Akali but Jax, Kayle, Katarina, Mordekaiser (and apparently Cho gath). Mordekaiser has been beaten to death Jax is a good champ with poor teamfight potential until he gets Gunblade and Rageblade then he has enough sustain to help him out. Katarina gets the item to give her a form of sustainability because she has none.

So instead of nerfing the biggest problem area they went and hit the Item. 1 nerfs and 5 indirect nerfs at one time VS 1 nerf to 1 champ. Regardless of this change Akali will still be strong and Riot will turn around and nerf her then they will leave Jax and his pals in the dust.

Im onto you Riot.



Edit: 8-21-11

Jax is losing 15 base damage on both his leap strike and empower. Jax will now have 20 base damage on Leapstrike and 50 base damage on Empower. I am fine with these changes as its the proper way to do it and aims to fix the problem instead of gimping the champ. However a Nerf is a Nerf and still sucks.



Edit:

Jax Fixes in this current patch 7/25/2011 this is how they should have done it in the first place.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Udyr View Post
Jax
  • Leap Strike
    • Attack damage ratio increased to 1.0 from 0.7
    • Base damage reduced to 35/60/85/110/135 from 50/75/100/125/150



Edit: Jax Changes were not in the patch it is explained why by morello quoted below.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You're right - with the patch issues, we didn't get around to this one. I'll make sure the team's thinking about what to do here.

Morello posted in another topic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
In the short term, we're changing the nerf - we had an internal error with the changes (my bad personally on this one) and did 1.0 -> 0.7 when the intended change was 1.0 -> 0.9.

We'll remedy that in the post-Leona patch.

In the long term...honestly, Jax is sort of my "White Whale" of balance - not because he's absurd or he needs to be gutted, but because he has a pretty rough mix of mechanics to appropriately balance, and fixing them would largely remove some of the odd quirks players like about Jax. The Passive and dodge-based CC are particularly problematic at their cores.



Edit: Part of Jax's patch notes as confirmed by shurelia


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post
Sorry I just saw this now. Next patch I see this on the patchnotes:

* Leap Strike
** Attack damage ratio increase to 0.9 from 0.7
Also another part said by shurelia (not 100 percent confirmed but very likely)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post
The base is being nerfed already. By 10 I believe.




Edit: second red post by shurelia quoted below.



Edit: Good post about what one player thinks about Jax's overall problems and ways to fix them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Guttler View Post
I feel one of Jax's main problems is his weakness in the lane game post nerf. Most melee champs have some form of self healing that keeps them in their lane. Jax is one of the few champions with none, however Jax was also very good at harassing other champs with Leap Strike meaning he could compensate for his own weakness in the lane game by being able to force his enemies off their lane. Since the nerf he can't do that anymore since Leap Striking will almost always result in taking more damage then you hit for. Several options come to mind for solutions, either giving him some innate life steal, spell vamp, health per 5, a heal, or damage shield.

The second issue has to be CC; while Counter Strike is not horrible in it's current form considering it's AoE. I like the idea of CS procing from dodges, but rather then only being usable during a short window Jax should be allowed to store stacks of CS from dodges. Allowing him to tank minions to build stacks and then unleash them on enemy champions.

I think the best way to deal with Counter Strike is to redesign Jax's ult active. Instead of giving him a piddly amount of magic resist, why not instead increase his dodge chance by his magic resist and then make able to dodge spells. Allowing Jax to have an ult that increased his survivability to all forms of damage would greatly increase his value in a team fight and also give him dodge procs with translate into AoE stuns.

To answer problems with Jax's mid-game; all you damage is built around the ability to harass outside of the Empower and Leap Strike combo and the considerable damage out put from your ult's passive. Since the ult's passive takes a long time to stack up and falls off quickly it makes Jax able to put out a ton of damage to a stationary target, but kiting ruins you. I'd argue that playing Jax now feels similar to Master Yi if you chose not to take any ranks of Mediate or Highlander, in that you have a buff and a nice gap closer, but once that leap strike/alpha strike hits you have difficulty sealing the deal.

As for Jax's passive, I don't mind the current one so much, but having some extra HP doesn't make you a tank. During Irelia design, she was intended to be a bulky melee like Jax, but not as bulky as the champ. I think the problem is that Jax's passive can't be balanced as is; either the health per AP, AD ratio's will be too good and you'll have people playing Jax's with utterly crazy heath pools or it'll be too weak and hardly buff his durability at all. I'd favor just a flat bump to Jax's health and health per 5 per level, while changing his passive to something that synergized well with either his jumping style of play or allowing it to be easier to stack his ults passive.

Let's keep this thread rolling, FOR THE CHAMP!




Edit: it appears people dont realize how much jax was nerfed this patch.


There are 3 nerfs that affect jax in this patch 1 direct nerf and 2 indirect. First is the 30 percent scaling nerf to his AD ration on q. I cant remember the last time a champ got hit that hard by a scaling reduction nerf for awhile. And it doesnt help that jax is forced to rely on this ability to even have a decent mid game.

Second nerf and an indirect nerf is to the Revolver as this is one of jaxs core items until he is able to build into gunblade and is his only form of teamfight sustainability until he gets more lifesteal or some defensive items.

EDIT: Ward jumping has been placed back in so i removed this part

Overall while they dont seem like big changes they only serve to take a champ that already struggled and made his game that much more difficult.


End edit:


Af ter 1k replies Over 100 pages Long and about 65k Views Only one red reply was given and it was nothing but im sorry we did this heres an excuse that makes no sense.

That is unacceptable by any standard when something is done that that many people disagree with and all we get is a half ass response and then are completely ignored is greatly upsetting and it greatly diminishes my faith in a company that I love. Jax is one of my favorite champions in the game because hes difficult to play RIGHT and has to get through a very difficult laning Phase and an even more difficult mid game to become the true champ that we all know and love.

I have seen so many good posts in my original thread that i didnt have space to post them all and several other threads were also made in regards to this. They all had one thing in common, No one likes nor even understands why Jax was nerfed in the first place and whats even worse is the way it was done.

Instead of simply nerfing Jax's Base damage to help reduce his early game damage they went and reduced the AD ratio his Q by 30 percent!!! going from 1:1 ratio to a .7 Ratio is nothing to scoff at and for a champ that already has a difficult time laning and being in mid game only served to make an already troubled champion even more troubled.

If i had to compare it it would be like Nerfing master Yi because he has the ability to 3 shot people with the right runes and masteries where as the only thing really making Jax's laning a bit easier to deal with is his ability to "scare off" champs that are harassing him with the burst he can put out which was the only way to get him some time to farm however these put him at risk as they put him in range for harass and any form of CC they might have and 2 Jax now incurs minion Aggro which even with Dodge 7 minions machine gunning you will still hurt no matter who you are.

Now before any of you say this is a small nerf think about it a 30 percent scaling reduction is BIG no matter how you look at it and i have played Jax after his nerf and several of my friends have also played him and the damage loss is noticeable at all levels rather than just the intended level 2 nerf.

Riot myself and many others are very unhappy with this decision and yet you guys are super silent about it which much of the community has come to expect when talking about Jax.

This is not something the community should expect from a company that just thanked all its fans at dreamhack and for a company that is striving to do better.

Rule number 1 to make a company better is to take/rgive feedback from both the community and the company. Well your getting feedback from us however we arent getting feedback from you.

I also have to ask how many times has anybody seen a Jax OP thread? well i decided to use the search function came up with 20 pages when i searched Jax is OP i then decided to scan through the 20 pages and out of those 20 pages only 11 threads were actually about Jax being OP and none of them pointed out his flaws only his early game damage however every single one of those threads also said he was easy to stop and after laning phase his power dwindled alot unless fed.

That tells me something man that when 11 threads out of 20 pages are screaming Jax is OP and none of them name any of his flaws and twice as many people give many more reasons why hes easy to stop then you see why im having such a huge problem.

Overall i think this nerf was flat out uncalled for because Jax being one of my favorite champions as we all know who already struggles in the current state of the game is now being weakened it makes me upset. The way you went about it by nerfing his entire game rather than just your perceived problem makes me even more upset.

Not to mention that the thread we had which went almost 100 pages without a Riot response coupled by the huge amount of people that posted in the thread and you can see we have a problem Riot.



Second red response by Shurelia after 130 pages we finally got one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post
Hi Everyone.

We will be looking into fixing issues with Jax's changes next patch and we are making it a high priority. Sorry for what happened, and for the scare that it was a comprehensive change.

-Shurelia




Red post By Breaksteaks

I also want to add that this decision was most likely made by a team of people so lets try not to place blame on the only red who decided to respond to this thread. I actually have alot of respect for Breaksteaks coming here and being the scapegoat for the rage even as unhappy as i am about the change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaksteaks View Post
Hey guys I feel pretty bad about this one. I wanted to fix the abuse case of the level 2 combo. I'll do some more work for the champ in the future.



Jax Nerf Notes


Jax
Leap Strike attack damage ratio reduced to 0.7 from 1




Added a link to morellos post about ward jumping


http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...8#post10317878


A good post by Count Clover.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Count Clover View Post
I woke up to the patch notes this morning.

If I wasn't groggy as hell and was near a table I'd flip it.

I'd also request what sort of narcotic Riot was doing at the time that made them think that nerfing an already bad champion was a good idea.

Jax has received almost zero love ever since coming out of beta, sure the change to his ult was nice, but it didn't fix all his problems. The change to Empower was also nice, but then again, it's Empower.

So now he's got this here 1 to 1 AD ratio on his Q that keeps him afloat and makes him somewhat managable to use.

Riot: WE CAN'T HAVE THAT! HE DID TOO WELL AT DREAMHACK! HIS NEW FOTM BUILD MAKES HIM OP.

Ashe can store a crit and then follow up with Volley for at least half of someone's HP at level 1.
Urgot can toss a charge, and then follow up with missiles for half-90% of someone's health at level 4.
Tryndamere can make a full crit page and then kill most ranged DPS in 2 hits from 60% health.
Garen at level 1 can do 50-60% of someone's HP with a Decisive Strike with the right runepage. It continues to manhandle until late game.
Twitch can rest in peace, poor rat.

There's an interesting set of words. The Right Runepage.

Someone found out something that makes Jax viable again, but we can't have that at Riot Games? how dare you make a champion you love decent again, you're not on the balance team.

Number of Jax games seen at Dreamhack: 0 (1 if you count Dyrus trolling everyone for 20 seconds)
Number of people who wanted to see Jax at Dreamhack: The entire audience.
Number of people who will want to play Jax after this patch: fewer than before (especially with the changes to wards[that was just a stupid thing to change, "unintuitive" my ass])
Number of buffs to Jax in the past year: None.

Good game Riot. No rematches.






An excellent post by Adradian


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adradian View Post
F that, do work on him now! ... look, i'm a former Pantheon main (long before the buff) and if another of my champs is nerfed to oblivion and never rebalanced again, i'll freakin' scream...

With that said, the combo was considered abuse? check out the combos of a ton of other champions a bunch of them do comparable damage, plus have some sort of heal, slow, or other utility along with it.

I'm not even in the "jax was way UP" crowd. I considered him balanced but needed a bit of skill to pull off. HOWEVER, reducing his ratio like this didn't stop "abuse" it stopped Jax. Knocking 25 damage off early game doesn't seem like much, but that ratio carries into late game and hurts a ton there. On top of that about half the utility of his Q was removed (no longer able to jump to wards?) what gives? If you "feel bad" about a nerf , DON"T DO IT till you feel good about it.

So what happened was that people cried about Jax doing some damage early game so Riot responded to keep the masses happy and lost some integrity as champion balancers is that it? So what if a champion with no natural lane stability and no real utility has some burst damage, woopidido, that's his ONLY WAY of staying in lane.

-yes, i know that balancers isn't a word lol

Thanks for reading.







Added Jax's New passive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirbeefcake View Post
I bet they will change Jax's passive too.

"Jax's despair"

"Jax is depressed over the loss of his power and now brings his teammates down reducing all allied damage and scaling by 30 percent. Passive gains 1 percent everytime Jax dies up to a max of 60"




Adding the Math done by Drixs


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drixs View Post
You are partially correct. You forgot to add his default AD which is 60.

So before (15 extra damage (runes) + 60 default AD + 10 Dorans blade)*1 = 85 damage

After the nerf (15 extra damage(runes) + 60 default AD +10 Dorans blade)*.7 = 60 damage

That is -25 damage! thats early game

Another example: Late game
before nerf: 250 total AD * 1= 250 additional damage
After nerf: 250 total AD * .7 = 175 additional damage

The nerf cost him - 75 damage. That is almost 2 BF sword.

He has been nerfed to the ground. I fear he wont be viable anywhere anymore.


Added math done by Binksies in Lsmashkeyboards thread.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Binksies View Post
At level 2 Jax has 63,05 base attack damage. He gains 3 from masteries, 9*0,95 (8,55) + 3*2,25 (6,75) = 15,3. On top of that he gets 10 AD from a Doran's Blade. That's a total of 91,35 attack damage.

The formula for Leap Strike (rank 1):
50 + (1,0*AD + 0,7*AP)
The formula for Empower (rank 1):
75 + (0,4*AD + 0,4*AP)

Raw Leap Strike damage: 141,35
Raw Empower damage: 111,54

Now assume you are fighting an Irelia who is also level 2 and has the typical 0/9/21 build and scaling MR glyphs. She has 32,5 base MR on level 2, another 2,7 from runes and another 6 from masteries for a total of 41,2 MR.

41,2 MR is then reduced by 15% due to Archaic Knowledge. The final MR value is 35,02. This leads to a damage multiplier of 100/135,02, which is roughly 0,741. This would mean the total burst damage would be (141,35 + 111,54) * 0,708 = 187,30~

Now let's assume Irelia is facing an Annie instead - this Annie has 0,95 * 9 (8,55) Magic Penetration and 15% from Archaic Knowledge. On top of that she has 15 AP from a Doran's Ring and 14,85 AP from runes.
Her damage on Q + W would be:
90 + (0,75 * 29,85) = 112.39~
85 + (0,8 * 29,85) = 108,88

The enemy Irelia's MR would be reduced to 41,2 - 8,55 = 32,65 and then multiplied by 0,85 due to masteries leading to a total MR of 27,75~. The corresponding multiplier is 100/127.75 = 0,783. Her total burst would then be (112,39 + 108,88) * 0,783 = 173,25~. One should take into account that Annie can do this all from behind her own creep wave and can even stun the enemy Irelia if she uses her passive properly. As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather be the Annie in this scenario.





Adding the Post from Kryptocide in His thread 120 notes Jax


Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptocide View Post
Jax
  • Leap Strike attack damage ratio reduced to 0.7 from 1.

you guys better have those jax changes in 121 notes, cuz theres no reason to nerf jax, hes uselss in everyway. jax ONLY had early game and ONLY IF hes solo, this one situation made jax actaully good. his lvl 1 with this nerf is nothing ne more, that means his game onward is nothing, he wont be able to snowball at all, not easily, at all.


jax in a 2v2 lane is a joke compare to ALL the other champs. now its even worse. you guys nerf 30% of the ad he gets from q. 200 ap is easier to get than 200 ad so i get why his ap ratios are low, but now his ad ratio is bad, AND when you are building ad that means your auto atking and chasing and all that stuff that melees do but jax's design ISNT ment to stay on his target, hes got nothing to slow stun ZERO, now whats the point of going ad or ap ne more.

really i hope you guys at riot have something extraordinary for jax TOOO soon. i mean jax isnt played at NE elo, only for fun. just cuz once in a while a good player plays jax and starts to win, you guys are like ok i see some op happening lets NERF!, but not thinking that those players are just bad and alot of ppl underestimate jax's dmg.

jax abilties all do dmg, nothing else. why not play akali or xin or olaf, they do just as much dmg but have cc. but not, you guys at riot keep akali's R with infinite dashes, while jax has NOTHING AS A CC.

unnerf jax immediately.




This is the post from tenant in his thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenant View Post
One thing that really rubs me off wrong with this change is that it puts to light one of Jax's other curses.

It feels like it'd be really hard to sell Jax as a champion from an ability perspective; two of his abilities only deal raw damage. No special tricks, besides one of them doubling as a blink and the other being able to reset his autoattack timer...just raw damage. Seeing as how he can't reliably offer as much utility to his team, his single target burst is what, just barely, sets him apart from other tanky DPS.

Granted, his single target burst can be a bit absurd at times, but when all he can reliably offer to his team is damage...especially when he has competition like Irelia and Xin for picks...

This, in combination with his lack of reliable utility, a passive that polarizes him to be insanely powerful or pitifully weak, and like I said earlier, being plagued by odd design like scaling off of a stat that exists in only one item...as a devout Jax fan, it naturally feels bad to see my favorite champion being nerfed, but at the same time from my gameplay perspective, it just feels really weird to see one of his main draws being toned down when he has so many other flaws (whereas most champions getting nerfed, I can usually still recognize their strong points).

For the record though, I don't think Jax will be totally ruined. It's just....well, I certainly hope they're still looking into Jax's real problems.


added another good post by Bleedndreamz



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleedndreamz View Post
The patch as a whole is pretty cool. You see a ton of champions actually getting balance changes. However this one simply made me scratch my head.

In Starcraft(1 and 2) there is a tactic called "Cheese" tactics. These tactics usually revolve around using a particular strategy that intends to win you the game very early on. However if your cheese fails in the early game. Then it is incredibly easy for the enemy to beat you.

That idea pretty much encompasses Jax. But more importantly. The reason Jax has been coming onto the League of Legends scene again is because this rather "Cheesy" attack runes on Jax. It allows him to do very very high damage in the early game laning phase. However he doesn't have his end game runes as consequence. Those runes want you to have an amazing early game, and snowball off of that early game.

This tiny little fact has only slightly counterbalanced Jax's core issues as a champion, and his flaws in comparison to other carries like him.

Outright nerfing this early game Jax I can understand. However only nerf it if you intend to actually address the champions flawed issues he has. Because right now you are beating a dead horse that has only recently seen the light of day through the use of a cheese tactic. Nerfing this cheese tactic, and more importantly forcing all players into using these runes because it was a scaling nerf, not a base damage nerf.

It is kinda just like saying "We have a champion that usually isn't viable. He is outshined by all champions in his category. However there has been a tactic that was developed that allows Jax some viability through a bit of cheese... So lets nerf the cheese, and indirectly nerf the scaling and leave it at that."

"Wait but that doesn't fix jax..."

"LOL"
TLR

The Jax Nerf was completely uncalled for and random and it feels like a knee jerk reaction to a very very small minority of players who feel Jax is too strong. Also the red response was very short and brief and really didnt explain a single thing besides sorry guys but we wanted to nerf his early damage by nerfing his entire game.


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Rhaoin

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Senior Member

06-21-2011

WTF? Jax was already a kind-of-poor champion, this just makes him more and more useless.
I mean, I can understand that it was doing a little too much damage early game, but atleast scale it with rank so at level 5 it's still +1 ratio.

Yup, just thought of this idiom while I was making a sandwich
"Beating a dead horse"


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juzzthedude

Senior Member

06-21-2011

what nerfs?


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Babarr

Member

06-21-2011

I give it a few weeks before hes declared op


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Hobbito

Senior Member

06-21-2011

Yeah, this was really stupid. They did it because at level 1 with all attack runes, his Q hit for a ****load. However, all they had to do was lower the base damage at level 1, not ****ing kill the ratio.


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ChangWu

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Senior Member

06-21-2011

wut?


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DapperJope

Senior Member

06-21-2011

Hi, my name is Jax. I'm not very good right now, but sometimes I can do something.

Morello: Team, we have a serious issue right now! Apparently Jax does damage early game! Fix it!

Minions: NERF LEAPSTRIKE RATIO! huehueheuheuehue.. Morde almost es #1..

Riot games = worst balancing team/s to offer.


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HandheldBrandon

Senior Member

06-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by juzzthedude View Post
what nerfs?
They nerfed his Q from a 1.0 ratio to a .7 which doesnt seem like much but its his main form of offense and they nerfed it meaning he wont hit has hard which was his only real strength while laning.


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Kanerax

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Senior Member

06-21-2011

Goodnight sweet prince, I'll always remember him as the champ.


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Zrellik

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Senior Member

06-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbito View Post
Yeah, this was really stupid. They did it because at level 1 with all attack runes, his Q hit for a ****load. However, all they had to do was lower the base damage at level 1, not ****ing kill the ratio.
this really hurt the players who doesn't even use the attack runes in the first place. Not sure what riot is thinking.