[Guide] Dorkbrains' Warwick Guide

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Grinningsphinx

Senior Member

04-24-2010

i have to weigh in with Dorkbrains....My Warwick stacks AS runes....38% from runes plus whatever I get from masteries...I usually start with longswod+pot although you can go with the standard cloth or even vamp scepter..

Let me tell you i have NO problems getting kills with my crazy ass attack speed. I run ignite/flash and im just as fast as a smite/? WW with different runes.... AS is king on WW..

I can guarantee AS is faster then ArP.

Btw, Dork, they can get wardens mail or Frozen heart..both of which give me a bad day lol..but by that time the games usually over as ive raped the jungle and killed dragon 3+ times. Unless your team sucks, you win.


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dorkbrains

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Senior Member

04-24-2010

lmao. exactly. like if i REALLY need armor pen to beat the enemy team, the the enemy team is flippin' ******ed. they are wasting a slot, if they get warden's mail or frozen heart then they are probably a tank which is who i hsould be focusing last anyway and if they aren't a tank...****...why the **** do i care? someone on my team is most definitely raping him anyway.


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etherkye

Junior Member

04-27-2010

See now i think that the armour pen from the quintessence is just enough to negate the small golems armour and is therefore the perfect amount to hit level 2 ASAP. If i really need more then theres items you can get for it, last whisper reduces there armour by 40%, what more do you really need? And getting AS runes means you can buy one less AS item and get the damage ones faster.


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Helicrom

Member

04-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorkbrains View Post
Build 1: (My build)

Start with a Cloth Armor, 2 HP pots, and 1 sight ward. Ward your blue buff, run to the red buff mini creeps. Kill those creeps, if it's golems, smite the first golem, kill it, hit W, kill the second golem, if it's wolves, use W, kill them, go smite the Blue wraith, use W for the other 3, move on to your golem, since you have a ward there, you should know if the other team has been looking at it to check for you, if they have, then you have 2 choices, you can go risk killing it now, (drag it into the bush for extra safety) or you can go kill their blue buff. You make the decision. After getting a blue buff, kill the mini creeps at that side of the jungle and then head to the red buff, kill red buff, and whatever else it takes to get level 4. At level 4, don't use the point yet, go to the lane that is most pushed and go gank, if they enemies in that lane have 50% or less HP, wait until you move in to go for a kill before hitting a point into Blood Scent, if they have more than 50% just go ahead and use the point and go for the gank. If no lanes are gankable TRY ANYWAY!! Don't ever waste a red buff, it's dumb. At about 1100 gold, ill head back, and get my madreds razors and some boots of speed. Then ill just start building for Madred's Bloodrazor as soon as possible after this, starting with the Pickaxe first.
Where is lifesteal, where is BF sword, where is BLACK CLEAVER (-1)? I can't lie, going for pickaxe is tempting, but itís not the way to go. I even have my doubts that you are getting pickaxe at a useful time. If you want to win games you get a Black Cleaver! Wish I could quote the post on Armor Reduction. He is wrong and dorkbrains is right, attack speed is a better start because your lifesteal begins as a flat rate. You are correct that Armor Reduction does not speed up jungling in a significant way. However, at about level 14 or 15 Black Cleaver destroys people. Madreds can wait until people have obscene amounts of HP. I actually wait to get pickaxe last because the recurve bow complements the cleaver so well.

Madreds and jungling is the way to go (+1). Itís the only reason I'm not hitting the post with a -1. I am going to try to use your jungle progression tonight. First with smite and if that works, without it. All 4 levels is a lot of time to spend away from a lane. Can your teams hold up? Is this applicable to a normal game?

This guide offers a lot of facts, not a lot of substance on 'How to play WW'.

LOOK AT MY WW GUIDE HERE!
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...81#post1104481
Helicrom


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dorkbrains

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Senior Member

04-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicrom View Post
Where is lifesteal, where is BF sword, where is BLACK CLEAVER (-1)? I can't lie, going for pickaxe is tempting, but itís not the way to go. I even have my doubts that you are getting pickaxe at a useful time. If you want to win games you get a Black Cleaver! Wish I could quote the post on Armor Reduction. He is wrong and dorkbrains is right, attack speed is a better start because your lifesteal begins as a flat rate. You are correct that Armor Reduction does not speed up jungling in a significant way. However, at about level 14 or 15 Black Cleaver destroys people. Madreds can wait until people have obscene amounts of HP. I actually wait to get pickaxe last because the recurve bow complements the cleaver so well.

Madreds and jungling is the way to go (+1). Itís the only reason I'm not hitting the post with a -1. I am going to try to use your jungle progression tonight. First with smite and if that works, without it. All 4 levels is a lot of time to spend away from a lane. Can your teams hold up? Is this applicable to a normal game?

This guide offers a lot of facts, not a lot of substance on 'How to play WW'.

LOOK AT MY WW GUIDE HERE!
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...81#post1104481
Helicrom
black cleaver is an extremely overrated item on quite frankly any champion in the game. I understand that the ult does 5 hits which procs all 5 times for a black cleaver but it's still not as powerful as a madred's bloodrazor and last whisper combo....at all. it's no where close. at level 11 a lot of heros have about lets say 1500 HP and 4% of that is 60...times 5....that's an extra 300 onto your ult. since attack damage is nerfed so hard when you use your ult by having a black cleaver instead of 75 damage...you're only adding 25.

I understand why people think black cleaver is so amazing....but I don't agree that it is an item you should be getting early. You should always be rushing bloodrazor, boots, and then perhaps a last whisper if you think you really need the armor pen (Last Whisper > Black Cleave on any day of the week). If you ever want damage, get the Bloodthirster. The lifesteal is RIDICULOUS on warwick once it's stacked, and you really kinda need it lategame anyway.

Finally, I'm not going to lie, I'm having trouble accepting both your guide and what you've said just because you said staying in the jungle until level 4 is bad and that you actually lane with warwick on your guide....Warwick is NOT A LANING HERO!!!! He jungles, and he levels faster than the 2v2 lane so by jungling you're giving your team 3 heroes with more EXP than 4 people on the other team....GG.


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Helicrom

Member

04-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorkbrains View Post
black cleaver is an extremely overrated item on quite frankly any champion in the game. I understand that the ult does 5 hits which procs all 5 times for a black cleaver but it's still not as powerful as a madred's bloodrazor and last whisper combo....at all. it's no where close. at level 11 a lot of heros have about lets say 1500 HP and 4% of that is 60...times 5....that's an extra 300 onto your ult. since attack damage is nerfed so hard when you use your ult by having a black cleaver instead of 75 damage...you're only adding 25.

I understand why people think black cleaver is so amazing....but I don't agree that it is an item you should be getting early. You should always be rushing bloodrazor, boots, and then perhaps a last whisper if you think you really need the armor pen (Last Whisper > Black Cleave on any day of the week). If you ever want damage, get the Bloodthirster. The lifesteal is RIDICULOUS on warwick once it's stacked, and you really kinda need it lategame anyway.

Finally, I'm not going to lie, I'm having trouble accepting both your guide and what you've said just because you said staying in the jungle until level 4 is bad and that you actually lane with warwick on your guide....Warwick is NOT A LANING HERO!!!! He jungles, and he levels faster than the 2v2 lane so by jungling you're giving your team 3 heroes with more EXP than 4 people on the other team....GG.
Lets start where you are most confused. You said "...because you said staying in the jungle until level 4 is bad...," when what I said was "All 4 levels is a lot of time to spend away from a lane. Can your teams hold up? Is this applicable to a normal game?"
The point I was trying to make is you may not know you are always going to have two solo'ers. Anyway, my WW lanes for either HALF A LEVEL, or ONE AND ONE HALF LEVELS because I think Smite sucks. Without it you cannot take ghouls short of lvl 3 and preferably lvl 4. This leaves me with only 2 jungle spawns to hit. It is the cost I pay to have two CYA's.

To further drive this home look at Wazzabi's guide.

Phase 2.A - Find the Weakling and Gimp Him Hard

"This is by far Warwickís strongest phase. This phase can begin as early as lvl 3, or as late as lvl 6. Itís a judgment call. The idea here is to pick a hero on the map that you can kill easily."

Had you read my guide, I am always going to a lane that has Jax. What I left out is he always takes exhaust. I am simply go FIND THE WEAKLING AND GIMP HIM HARD at lvl 2. PLEASE, disagree with the GOD WAZZABI!

I wasn't able to find all the information I need. That I could, comes from
http://completelol.com/wiki/Champion_Stats_Calculator & The LoL database.
Please look at the assumptions closely because that is the most important info.

Assumptions:
WW (lvl 14)
Two points in Infinite Duress
Attacking a 1500 hp enemy, who has 60 armor and 30 magic resistance.
Black Cleaver debuff effect from the first hit is not noticed until the second hit.
Madred's damage is ran through magic resistance.

Using Infinite Duress with Black Cleaver:
441.06 physical damage based on 118.08 (=(101+75)*.33+60) damage and reductions of 0.3750 (60/160), 0.3243 (48/148), 0.2647, 0.1935, 0.1071 on each respective hit.

Opponent debuffed 60 armor/ Next hit 176 (=(101+75)*(1-(0/100))

Using Infinite Duress with Madred's Bloodrazors:
322.59 physical damage based on 103.23 =((101+40)*.3+60) damage per hit and reductions of 0.375 on each respective hit.
243.77 magic damage based on 60 (=1500*.04) damage per hit and reductions of .2307 on each respective hit.

Opponent debuffed 0 armor/ Next hit 81.875 Physical Damage (=(101+40)*(1-(60/160)) + 46.15 (=1500*.04*(1-(30/130)) Magic Damage

I had to do this pretty quick, I am at work, but I think the numbers speak for themselves. You get more damage from Infinite Duress if you use Madreds. However, 4 hits after Infinite Duress, Black Cleaver has done more damage. Plus, we are ignoring how armor pen can affect a crit. I really can't believe you were dumb enough to post this without even considering the effect of Armor/resistances, WHAT WE WERE ACTUALLY DISCUSSING. Perhaps this will humble you a little bit. Put some time, effort, and ACTUAL THOUGHT into your next post. This may actual involve reading what the other people said... instead of conjuring your own words.

Helicrom
edit 4/29: Base damage at lvl 14 is actually 101. I had 104 before.


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dorkbrains

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Senior Member

04-28-2010

Well, I was going to check all the math but seeing as I have Exams all day tomorrow I really can't be bothered, and just by looking at it, the numbers do seem to be pretty accurate. However, I still disagree that Black Cleaver is NECESSARY on Warwick. In fact, I think it's a huge mistake to even consider wasting your gold on such a horrible item to be completely honest :S. I'm really sorry to shoot it down every time you mention it but it's just not that wonderful of an item. Sure, the armor pen is amazing and the idea behind the item is pretty amazing in itself but the use of it in the game is just not near the potential of Madred's Bloodrazor. Usually, if you get your ult off on someone and you have Madred's, you're going to kill them...pretty much no doubt...for instance, with your example...you ult them to deal...579 damage, then you should be using hungering strike immediately after...level 14, should be @ level 5 strike so we'll say 300 damage...so now you've done 879 damage, dude is below 50% HP, you're faster than them, you said 4 hits until cleaver outdoes it? okay....138 * 4 = another 552 damage. so now we're at 1432 damage...and you prolly got another hungering strike in there somewhere im sure, but not like it matters...the dude is dead....with madreds only...sure, he would be dead if you only had Black Cleaver just as well, but the point of this is not to be in a 1v1 situation all the **** time. The point of this is to hurt the hell out of the enemy team and if you have madreds bloodrazor, you're not depending on attacking the guy 5 times until you have max debuff on him, you're attacking and eating his HP like it's nobodies business. Also, there is one thing Madred's has that Black Cleaver can't even touch....attack speed. By the time you've hit me 3 times, i've hit you 5 times (i believe) which means, im STILL out damaging you. Sorry.

Now that I'm done with that let me go back in time a bit here...where you dragged Wazzabi's guide into this....first of all, Wazzabi 100% supports the idea of smite, so if anyone is going against him, it's you. lol. Secondly...if you think that I don't gimp the hell out of someone when I play warwick, you're so sadly mistaken that there is no way you can see straight right now. You don't have to be in a ****ing lane to gimp someone buddy. I stay in the jungle for pretty much the entire game, THIS DOESN'T MEAN I DON'T COME OUT!?!?!!! LOL!!! Element of surprise is how you play warwick. I get level 4 after red buff, go sit in a bot lane or top lane bush, sneak behind the enemies, pop out when they are at the tower and BAM1!! DOUBLE KILL WHEN THEY ARE LEVEL 3!!! If that's not gimping, idk what is!!! Then when im done with that lane, I GO TO THE NEXT LANE!!! GG.....and if i cant get the other lane....DRAGON!!!!! Once im done with dragon....ENEMY BUFFS!!!! The jungle is your home as warwick!!! If you're not starting in it, you're doing it wrong......I'm really sorry to say it. But it's a fact. As far as the wraiths...you can kill them suckers at level 2 when you get hungering strike bro...not hard at all...kill the blue one first and it's all downhill from there.

I, dorkbrains, am not humbled.


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Helicrom

Member

04-29-2010

You said my numbers looked agreeable. I am using the same Excel spreadsheet so I will refrain from including the formulas.

ASSUMPTIONS (This is hot off the presses. CHECK MY MATH PLEASE!)
Level 14 WW
5 hits
30 Magic Resist
60 Armor

DAMAGE WITH MADREDS BLOODRAZORS
Total Damage 640.14
DPS 180.52

DAMAGE WITH MADREDS RAZORS AND BLACK CLEAVER
Total Damage 713.43
DPS 144.11

Now lets take a look at this same 5 hits, done after an ultimate (INFINITE DURESS).


DAMAGE WITH MADREDS BLOODRAZORS (REMAINS THE SAME)
Total Damage 640.14
DPS 180.52

DAMAGE WITH MADREDS RAZORS AND BLACK CLEAVER
Total Damage 955
DPS 192.91

Ironically, the difference between the two is really only attack speed. Add a recurve bow and the DPS for Black Cleaver jumps to 201 for 5 normal hits, and 269 after an Ulti.

Madreds bloodrazor is 265 gold cheaper than adding Black Cleaver. Madreds will increase your DPS more than Black Cleaver. Black Cleaver with madreds razors used after an Infinite Duress has a higher DPS than Madreds bloodrazors. I guess it just goes to your style.

I wonder what you would go to after completing bloodrazor that is stronger than adding recurve=>pickaxe=>bloodrazor to a black cleaver....

Two things.

First thing. You keep going back to smite, this is not the point I was trying to make. To further clarify, I don't think smite is bad at all. I am simply trying to find a way around using it so I can get 2 CYA's. ANYWAY. We are playing the same game just at different times, that double kill you get at lvl 4, I am going for at lvl 2. Now once you get that double kill do you simply abandon all the easy minion kills you could get, just to go back to the jungle? I say no, I stay and mop up the XP and then leave once they are respawned. I can further elaborate on how you then want to push turret and get your minions killed off (to deny them the xp gain from built up minions) if you wish.

Second thing.
Please answer these two questions.
1. Are you playing AT (how many? premade?) or normal game?
2. Are there ever games where the 1v2 solo'er feeds?

Helicrom
edit 4/29: Added the Normal Damage Section!


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dorkbrains

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Senior Member

04-29-2010

I used to play warwick in solo queue all the time, however, recently, i pretty much only play warwick if there is a hard carry and or a nidalee on the team, this offers my team a guaranteed 2v1 solo laner and a good person to take mid over the nidalee, if I arranged team, I always play with someone who can play nidalee. obviously there have been 1v2 feeders but in all honesty I have more issues with my 2v2 lanes than i ever do with a 2v1er because it's not as hard as people think it is. tower hug. By level 4 which is in only about 4 or 5 minutes, I can go gank the top lane because i have red and blue buff. I guarantee you that you're not double killing or even getting close to a kill at level 2 with no red buff. Unless of course you're playing against people that just got the game. Anyone at a decent level of this game knows that warwick is possible the worst laner in the game and that if they just autoattack you, you'll die. Every time I've seen a Warwick in a lane, i've told my team "just harass the living hell out of him, make him use hungering strike until he has no mana, and then kill him, you should have first blood by the time he's level 2"

1 level later, he's dead.

this is why i refuse to even dare to vouch your idea of ever being in a lane, whether it be for 1 level or 2. if you so indeedly insist on not using smite, and you insist on being level 3 before you kill buffs, or whatever you do....then kill the mini creeps first, the 2 golems give you a level at level 1, then go get the wolves, if it's another golem camp, awesome, you're nearly level 3 now. go kill buffs. no matter what, staying in the jungle is faster than hybriding a lane/jungle idea, it's foolish, and prolly gets you killed or will get you killed more than jungling has.

and after that last comment, i expect you'll ask me how many times i've been ganked at the beginning.

Attempts: Too many to count.
Successful Ganks: 27.

Total games as Warwick: 358.

7% is pretty **** good in my book.


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Helicrom

Member

04-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorkbrains View Post
I used to play warwick in solo queue all the time, however, recently, i pretty much only play warwick if there is a hard carry and or a nidalee on the team, this offers my team a guaranteed 2v1 solo laner and a good person to take mid over the nidalee, if I arranged team, I always play with someone who can play nidalee. obviously there have been 1v2 feeders but in all honesty I have more issues with my 2v2 lanes than i ever do with a 2v1er because it's not as hard as people think it is. tower hug. By level 4 which is in only about 4 or 5 minutes, I can go gank the top lane because i have red and blue buff. I guarantee you that you're not double killing or even getting close to a kill at level 2 with no red buff. Unless of course you're playing against people that just got the game. Anyone at a decent level of this game knows that warwick is possible the worst laner in the game and that if they just autoattack you, you'll die. Every time I've seen a Warwick in a lane, i've told my team "just harass the living hell out of him, make him use hungering strike until he has no mana, and then kill him, you should have first blood by the time he's level 2"

1 level later, he's dead.

this is why i refuse to even dare to vouch your idea of ever being in a lane, whether it be for 1 level or 2. if you so indeedly insist on not using smite, and you insist on being level 3 before you kill buffs, or whatever you do....then kill the mini creeps first, the 2 golems give you a level at level 1, then go get the wolves, if it's another golem camp, awesome, you're nearly level 3 now. go kill buffs. no matter what, staying in the jungle is faster than hybriding a lane/jungle idea, it's foolish, and prolly gets you killed or will get you killed more than jungling has.

and after that last comment, i expect you'll ask me how many times i've been ganked at the beginning.

Attempts: Too many to count.
Successful Ganks: 27.

Total games as Warwick: 358.

7% is pretty **** good in my book.
I disagree with nothing. Read my guide again please.

"I begin the game by buying a long sword (+10 dmg). I choose bite for my first skill. If I am top-right, we got top. Bot-right we go bot. This is because the monster spawn is a quicker run to the lane. If two golems spawn (and you have the XP boost from mastery or a Zilean on the team) you will level or be very close to a level. Three dogs are less XP, but you will be less battered when you run to the lane. Once you reach the lane, normally 2-3 minions have been killed. Regardless, before anyone else in the lane you will be level two. Take hunterís call. Concentrate almost entirely on harassing enemies with your bite (you want to cripple your enemies enough so you can leave and your teammate has hesitant harassers). Attack minions only for kill shots (you donít want to push the pile only to leave your teammate and give the opponents a bunch of XP and gold). If you are lucky (and mostly you will be playing normal games) at least one of the two enemies will die to you during this time. Next, get used to the monster spawn timer. You want to arrive back at the first location once it spawns (itís only a few minutes). Kill these monsters."

I suppose maybe I poorly articulated that you are going for a kill when you arrive in the lane. I am in the jungle every single minute I find valuable. I have even altered this build so that I start opposite of the lane I will start my gank in and kill two spawns. If you make this alteration you are guaranteed to get to the lane lvl 2. If you pick to only jungle once, you better get lucky and receive two golems.

As for the comment of the competition. I guess I really can't argue with that. I played AT with only players with 100+ wins (until recently my roommate started). The Jax that I pair with, and RL best friend, takes exhaust and flash. I like to mix it up between flash and heal/exhaust. I only said double kills because you mentioned them. The only time this results in a double kill is when their ally refuses to let them die/ thinks they are going to kill one of us. This is usually the case when facing two melee champs.

Its pretty easy to get a SINGLE kill being level 2 with 2 CYA's. A flash, auto attack, bite, is half of someones base HP. Jax exhausts, jumps, and I pop hunter's call. If no one in that lane took HP to start I am pretty confident we are getting a kill. The strategy can change a little with a squishy. This could mean Jax attacks the melee (Runes set for dodge) while I (magic resist glyphs) push the squishy back. If he turns tail and runs his teamate is dead. If he stays long enough that Jax catches up to us, he is dead. If he hesitates we can get a double kill.

Obviously, worse case is we get our butts handed to us. With two CYA's you better not be dying. With no kills I expect to just barely be leveling when my first jungle respawns. With kills you are sitting there antsy and gain a level and a half. Minus not using smite, I like this because 8/10 it results in the enemies being crippled hp wise for a while. Even if I leave with 20 hp at lvl 3 I can jungle without stopping and my Jax now gets to be in a lane with low HP champs. Holding a lane 1v2 is not hard, as you said turret hug. What is hard for non/short- ranged champs is getting gold. This way he can push them around a little bit and make sure he is getting most if not all of his last hits.

No I won't ask you how many occasions you have been ganked. I keep reading people talking about countering a jungling WW and I just laugh...

Plus, I gotta bust your balls, what kind of strategy is only playing WW with a Nidalee in that lane? I play with him every game...

Helicrom


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