Attack Speed or Armor Pen Marks?

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Edyll

Senior Member

03-26-2010

Title says it all.

Effectively, each attack speed mark adds 1.7% dps. Early game, each armor pen rune adds close to 2% more damage per hit, but late game as enemies gain more armor, the penetration falls off closer to 1% bonus per rune. Furthermore, Armor Pen is wasted against creeps and mostly ineffective against high-armor towers.

It's well established, I believe, that Armor Pen runes are usually superior to Crit Damage runes. But is it possible that attack speed runes are better? The specific context I am considering is a phoenix Udyr where only about 75% of my damage comes from physical attack and the other 25% from a proc.

The problem I see is that attack speed has decaying benefits as more attack speed is added. Late game both Attack Speed and Armor Pen runes have a relatively low benefit (but the same is true for damage, AP, HP, etc - basically any rune).

Before I buy a page of AS runes, what other heroes might benefit from an AS build?


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KaiTo1520

Member

03-26-2010

long range ones... full crit chance(reds) can give devastating damage early and late game though....


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Azing

Senior Member

03-26-2010

ArP > Attack Speed. Attack Speed is obtainable in game, and besides a few items (Most which lack damage and other good effects) Attack Speed items will often outweigh them

Even late game a dps won't get that much armor. A last whisper will easily make up for more armor and negate it, not to mention it gives 50% Attack Speed that you love.

Stack that ArP. Make them pay for messing you with you!


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Lyrondak

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Member

03-26-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edyll View Post
Effectively, each attack speed mark adds 1.7% dps.
It only adds 1.7% more dps at lvl 1 (actually a little bit less, read below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edyll View Post
The problem I see is that attack speed has decaying benefits as more attack speed is added.
Attack speed stacks additively. But the % increase is based on your BASE attack speed. As you level up, your attack speed increases, but unfortunately that doesn't mean your AS items get better. I'll give an example.

You typically have about 0.64 attacks/sec base
At level 1, your attack speed is 0.66
At lvl 18 it is 1 atk/sec.

Say you buy a 50% AS item.
It will add 0.64 * 0.5 = +0.32 attacks/sec
You end up having 0.66 + 0.32 = 0.98 attacks/sec at lvl 1.
If you bought the same item at lvl 18, it will still add +0.32 atk/sec, making you have 1.32 atks/sec.

So at lvl 1, a 50% IAS item increases your dps by 48%, while the same item would only increase your dps by 32% at lvl 18. Because of this, it makes it seem like theres a "decay" but there really isn't, the atks/sec increase is still the same.


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GuyGin

Senior Member

03-26-2010

Ignoring all the math, Arpen is almost always better, but there are certain heroes and builds which probably benefit more from attack speed.

If you are playing a pure dps carry, you will almost always be better off with Arpen.

However, Some builds / characters can really utilize attack speed: some examples:
Kayle -> Her Holy Fire skill scales much better with attack speed than Arpen, and AS actually even works to make your AP more beneficial.
TF -> Stacked Deck can make AS very potent on him, moreso than Arpen depending on how you build him (obviously if you go bloodthirster + Infinity edge, arpen will maybe pull ahead, but if you go something more hybrid like SotD + Rageblade, you will probably get more out of attack speed.)
Jax -> Much like TF with his ult, so much of his damage comes from magic damage despite him being melee (empower + ult). This makes AP a generally good stat, but moreso it makes him more of a hybrid hero.

Those are the 3 I can think of. There might be others but I don't know off of the top of my head.

someone like Trist, Ashe, Yi, etc. would always be better off with arpen.


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BrünoTheßõõtiful

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Member

03-26-2010

I whole-heartedly agree armour pen is better, however, after I had a bit of fun with the combiner, I built an all-out attack speed rune-book. Not as powerful, but you can utilise this. For example, I havent done any research but most ashe guides tell you to spam volley, for me I play passively, level up the money benefit mostly, makes me a powerful carry, as I usually hit some pretty awesome timings with my BF sword, and of course the 17 minute stun helps. I am thinking about writing a guide, I always get good scores but maybe I am playing complete nubi's.


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Morinav

Senior Member

03-27-2010

In general, Armor Pen > everything else.