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AP Shen.. what?

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03-25-2010

My thoughts are, if you build an AP Shen and then taunt 4 people at once, you're going to die before the 2 second taunt wears off. If you choose to not taunt groups you are wasting a skill that no other champ has and thus not using Shen to his full potential.

Therefore:


HP/AR/MR. Tank the snot out of 5 people at once, and mark targets for your team with Vorpal. Get maybe 4 kills in a game, but die less than twice and have over 10 assists. Win said game.


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GuyGin

Senior Member

03-25-2010

Quote:
AutoSponge:
I did my typical analysis for a new character. I removed any value for Mp5 or Mana and looked at what AP items Shen would want, here's the ranked list:

Mejai's Soulstealer (20)
Guinsoo's Rageblade (8)
Mejai's Soulstealer (half)
Doran's ring
Rod of Ages (full)
Zhonya's Ring (100)
Abyssal Scepter
Zhonya's Ring (80)
Guinsoo's Rageblade
Blasting Wand
Amplifying Tome
Rylai's Scepter
Archangel's Staff (4k)
The Black Cleaver
Zhonya's Ring
Kage's Lucky Pick
Trinity Force
Rod of Ages (half)
Nashor's Tooth
Rod of Ages

Rylai's does help chase, I've tested it. Rageblade seems like a good choice since you'll be proc'ing and casting on 8 stacks often. If you're good and can protect the stacks, mejai's could be sick otherwise z-ring rounds out the AP items you'd want.

That third item doesn't seem very practical. I'd probably go with something else tanky instead. With some mpen, your overall DPS as well as burst damage would increase with a build like this. So, I'm thinking my tank items would be Soulfire cape(s).

edit: BTW, everything after blasting wand is a negative value item.


I'm sorry but that list is trash. You have Rylia's just above Archangel's staff? Archangel's staff is only useful on heroes with mana.

Trinity force is that low too?

rod of ages so high?

Just... no.


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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-25-2010

Quote:
GuyGin:
I'm sorry but that list is trash. You have Rylia's just above Archangel's staff? Archangel's staff is only useful on heroes with mana.

Trinity force is that low too?

rod of ages so high?

Just... no.


Hah, you're right about the staff, (I'm just modifying an existing spreadsheet), but yes, the RoA does provide a ton of HP on the cheap (when full). Trinity is valuable, but it offers mana (wasted), and a mix of stuff that can be bought elsewhere for cheaper (not counting the proc).

Don't blame me, blame math.


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GuyGin

Senior Member

03-25-2010

Quote:
AutoSponge:
Hah, you're right about the staff, (I'm just modifying an existing spreadsheet), but yes, the RoA does provide a ton of HP on the cheap (when full). Trinity is valuable, but it offers mana (wasted), and a mix of stuff that can be bought elsewhere for cheaper (not counting the proc).

Don't blame me, blame math.


It's just wrong to ignore the proc on Rylia's AND Trinity force. Valuing things based solely on their AP / AD / HP value is ridiculous.

FULL RoA is 650 health and 80 AP for shen @ 3035
Rylias is 500 health and 80 AP for shen @ 3095

Furthermore, with RoA you're handicapping yourself with a buildup which gives you little benefit, and then having an EXTREMELY sub par item for the first 10 minutes you have it. While Rylia's gives you Almost the full benefit of a full RoA from the getgo PLUS the snaring proc.

Trinity force is more difficult to quantify, imo, but a lot of its value comes from the fact that it has many useful stats other than just AP and HP (IAS, in fact it's the ONLY item with HP AND IAS) though I'm not sure about its real value or the spammability of shen's skills in general,


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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-25-2010

Quote:
GuyGin:
It's just wrong to ignore the proc on Rylia's AND Trinity force. Valuing things based solely on their AP / AD / HP value is ridiculous.

FULL RoA is 650 health and 80 AP for shen @ 3035
Rylias is 500 health and 80 AP for shen @ 3095

Furthermore, with RoA you're handicapping yourself with a buildup which gives you little benefit, and then having an EXTREMELY sub par item for the first 10 minutes you have it. While Rylia's gives you Almost the full benefit of a full RoA from the getgo PLUS the snaring proc.

Trinity force is more difficult to quantify, imo, but a lot of its value comes from the fact that it has many useful stats other than just AP and HP (IAS, in fact it's the ONLY item with HP AND IAS) though I'm not sure about its real value or the spammability of shen's skills in general,


Chill. I agree with you. Rylai's is probably the only AP item I'd personally buy for Shen (next to rageblade maybe). It's really good for chasing in my tests--increasing the chances to land a taunt if the enemy tries strafing. But the list is the list because of the math. Don't argue with the list, just make your comments and move along.


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gakule

Recruiter

03-25-2010

AP Shen would just be horrible compared to HP/AD/ATKSP Shen. Try again.


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GENERAL NUTBAKED

Senior Member

03-25-2010

Shen's vorpal blade has a 0.6 AP ratio. this is actually excellent considering how spammable it is.

Shen's feint has a 0.3 AP ratio. this is not so great.

Shen's ultimate has a 1:1 AP ratio. this is amazing, as 2 shields are applied.

I have contemplated an AP build, using his taunt as nothing more than a blink/interrupt.

The most viable build, in my eyes, would be

Ruby Crystal
Mejai's
Defensive boots
Rylai's
Frozen Mallet
Lich's Bane
Zhonya's ring

With Mallet and Rylais, Shen should have around 3.6k health.

His strategy would probably involve vorpal blade for like 650 followed by a 400 lich's bane (300 AP+ autoattack), rinse/repeat.

This means that burst wise, he has about 1/3 the burst as kassadin, who his playstyle would be best compared to. However, his ult would shield for like 1100 or something ******ed, and his feint would block like 100 extra damage.
Also, a deathfire's grasp wouldnt be bad on him either.

However, he will still be squishy if focused (he is still melee, so people will poke him, and without appropriate armor/mr, 3600 health will still die pretty fast).

Since most tanking builds on him would still involve either rylai's or mallet, I think tanking is still better.


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PatMcGroyne

Senior Member

03-25-2010

AP build on Shen is useless... I haven't had too many people break the shield most of the time the shield is up for it's 5 seconds and then it's gone... What I like to do with Shen is have a pseudo tank on your team like mundo or sion... Then you just ult on them let the shield absorb the damage and then you teleport in with your shield on taunt them as soon as your shield is down start spamming feint vorpal blade whoever you you are going to hit and then keep tapping w until the battle is over... I had a katarina on my team with 3k hp and she refused to go in because she was an idiot... Later I did this with mordekaiser and we tanked them for a solid 20 seconds while our team killed them all because your shield takes the big cooldowns along with your first feint.

1. Dorans
2. boots of choice
3. Warmogs
4. Sunfire
5. Force of nature/Frozen mallet if you need MR get FoN
6. Whatever you didnt get in 5
7. Sell dorans and get whatever you need... unlikely you will even get to step 5 but hey sometimes teams like to feed lol.


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Taste

Junior Member

03-26-2010

Shen AP is not useless... His dominance in lane is felt very quickly with the ability to have a flash/escape mech at lvl 3. On top of that since sheen procs w/ his passive he deals out a considerable burst w/ his spamable q and ability to heal himself and partner via vorpal blade..(Not much but enough to make a difference in earlier stages of the game) Also as someone stated earlier at a certain point in the game hp becomes a small factor in team fights due to armor pen or reduction for example, last whisper, black cleaver.. Which is a very common build on ranged carries such as Ashe, and Corki. At that point armor becomes a more logical route to effectively cancel armor pen or mag pen (should there dmg output be someone such as ryze, annie, etc) And since rylais and RoA both give you huge hp bonuses Ap shen is a very viable build, depending on the situation. I think the most interesting part about this character is his ability to be very versatile in games to situations... And his over all affect on the battle.


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PatMcGroyne

Senior Member

03-26-2010

Quote:
Taste:
Shen AP is not useless... His dominance in lane is felt very quickly with the ability to have a flash/escape mech at lvl 3. On top of that since sheen procs w/ his passive he deals out a considerable burst w/ his spamable q and ability to heal himself and partner via vorpal blade..(Not much but enough to make a difference in earlier stages of the game) Also as someone stated earlier at a certain point in the game hp becomes a small factor in team fights due to armor pen or reduction for example, last whisper, black cleaver.. Which is a very common build on ranged carries such as Ashe, and Corki. At that point armor becomes a more logical route to effectively cancel armor pen or mag pen (should there dmg output be someone such as ryze, annie, etc) And since rylais and RoA both give you huge hp bonuses Ap shen is a very viable build, depending on the situation. I think the most interesting part about this character is his ability to be very versatile in games to situations... And his over all affect on the battle.


Spending loads of money on AP for an extra 60 DPS (extra 180 damage with 300 AP on a 3 seconds cooldown = 60 DPS) is stupid. Buffing your shield that blocks 1 source of damage which is probably going to be way under the 450 anyways = stupid, Buffing a shield that usually doesn't even get broken and just fades after 5 seconds = stupid... You are much better to your team stacking HP,armor and MR and putting the damage on your passive instead. Think before you write stupid things and his escape mechanism isn't even based on AP. Sheen is dumb because your atk speed is **** anyways and so is your damage out put you can beat almost anyone 1v1 anyways with feint and vorpal combined with your passive. Getting all these usless items and wasting your money takes away from what shen doesn best which is tanking... I'll play my shen vs. yours and wreck you. go to league craft and you'll see what I'm saying is correct.


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