AP kog Maw

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Narvuntien

Senior Member

05-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffyburrito View Post
I'm sorry but there is no survivability in any side of that argument. "Survivability" is all about positioning, summoner spells, and tanks. Rylai's gives you 500 hp with no resists. You still melt. Banshee's veil is taken way too late, you'll feed the entire game until that moment. If you had 500 AP total you'd add 150 more damage to his ult and 350 to E. This is laughable. An AS build does more damage than your entire build in one auto-attack.
your argument is fair....

however you are forgetting Rylais slow... and Ultis range advantage... and W range advantage. I feel the Auto attack range while large isn't large enough.

I didn't feed up until the point I went for banchee's I was mostly just adding more Hp and mana which is slightly more AP as well from AA's. However there were some very close calls with hp pots saving me from karthus ultis...

With the AP build I can hang way out of range and still contribute significantly to teamfights with no Hp... the extra mana means I can spam the Ulti better than a AS/On Hit build.

I am going to have to switch between the two to directly compare them tonight.... there are more things than just damage.


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Dhevel

Junior Member

05-26-2011

I agree, AP build is pretty powerful right now. Thing about kog is, people literally can't get near you if you are accurate with your ult. In team fight you stand back while everyone is dancing around waiting for a tank to initiate and pound them repeatedly with your artillery, lots of times by the time any fight breaks out you have their ranged and carries to 1/2 health, when they all bunch up after the fight is initiated blast them with void ooze, then w and q, while repeatedly hitting with ult, once the 5v5 is started it doesn't matter too much if you blow all your mana on your ult cause if you are hitting the fight will be very one sided and over quickly. Like someone said if a melee carry is focusing you wardens mail works well. I can usually hit close to 600 AP if I get a Mejai's to start with, Kog with his ult + void ooze is very hard to get close to to kill, making stacks pretty easy to keep and with his AE abilities even if you die in a team fight you generally get a few stacks anyhow. I find the AS/MP build a little limited as w is really your only viable attack, don't underestimate they power of void ooze, it should be maxed out first in any AP build.


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Narvuntien

Senior Member

05-26-2011

So E first then..

I was getting Q first for the attack speed boost passive since I didn't want to blow my mana too often whille laning... since I wasn't getting the attack speed I normally get I though it would make up for it..

I'll try the E first set up next game.


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seerieislee

Member

05-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narvuntien View Post
So E first then..

I was getting Q first for the attack speed boost passive since I didn't want to blow my mana too often whille laning... since I wasn't getting the attack speed I normally get I though it would make up for it..

I'll try the E first set up next game.
q is the last thing everytime. max e first then w and pop r every time too. so much better to get max damage out of e then get an extra hit from the aspd.


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Jewbacabra

Member

05-26-2011

Didn't read much of this thread, but I remember awhile back when Kog was used as an AP caster first, AD/Hybrid second that the focus was on Magic PEN, not on Ability power.

My AP kog build goes tear --> boots --> sorc boots --> haunting guise --> archangels and then w/e you feel like really. Sorc/haunting guise provide a solid amount of mpen, and if they dont get much more you're set.

His ult does double damage to champions right..?


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seerieislee

Member

05-26-2011

thats kinda what i'm working now, sorc boots and gauise are like first priority. if you get those two in the first 15min your basically getting enemy's at 0mr if you have runes for it also. which is sick to get full damage out of abilitys. also his ult is 1.5 to champs. so when your only scaling for .3 of your ability its more like .5 because the multiplier.


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Narvuntien

Senior Member

05-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewbacabra View Post
Didn't read much of this thread, but I remember awhile back when Kog was used as an AP caster first, AD/Hybrid second that the focus was on Magic PEN, not on Ability power.

My AP kog build goes tear --> boots --> sorc boots --> haunting guise --> archangels and then w/e you feel like really. Sorc/haunting guise provide a solid amount of mpen, and if they dont get much more you're set.

His ult does double damage to champions right..?
Yeah that was the original question in this thread... how much Mpen would I need?

Is Haunting guise going to be better than Rylais...It is half the price... but the slow is pretty devastating.

Should I get Malady first?.

But with two 20 AP items filling up slots you end up with very little AP later on... Is Void staff just going to be better?

Does the change on Q mean you can get less MPen now since you can remove it with your abilities now.

I have MPen marks and masteries, and assuming my opponents have at least a banchee viel worth of MR + base MR.

can we do some maths?


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seerieislee

Member

05-26-2011

the route i go is sorc boots->guise->malady->deathcap->lichbane->then whatever... at that point your already over 400ap with lichbane adding that to your next attack after everyskill is some ultra burst. 60% slow from e is more then enough to devestate them fast enough.


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Fluffyburrito

Senior Member

05-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narvuntien View Post
Yeah that was the original question in this thread... how much Mpen would I need?

Is Haunting guise going to be better than Rylais...It is half the price... but the slow is pretty devastating.

Should I get Malady first?.

But with two 20 AP items filling up slots you end up with very little AP later on... Is Void staff just going to be better?

Does the change on Q mean you can get less MPen now since you can remove it with your abilities now.

I have MPen marks and masteries, and assuming my opponents have at least a banchee viel worth of MR + base MR.

can we do some maths?
I tried showing you math that proves an AP build on Kog Maw is horrible, and there is no math to say otherwise. Spamming your ult in teamfights doesn't contribute as much as a Kog Maw that goes AS or AD. If you really have to stand back and poke with your ult to contribute nothing to a teamfight you don't know how to position yourself in a teamfight. Rylai's is the only thing you could consider slightly decent for upgrading your ult, yet you already have a slow if you're really chasing someone.

Not building AP makes your ult do almost the exact same damage. You only grant about 150 more damage assuming you got mega fed with deathcap and mejai's stacks. This is BEFORE enemy magic resist is calculated. At most, without any enemy magic resist, you are poking them for 400. Once again, an auto-attack from an AS or AD Kog Maw, that late into the game, will do more damage than one ult.

Kog's ult is meant for chasing and poking. It doesn't do enough damage to carry. Consider that Miss Fortune also has AP on 3 of her skills, and better ratios even. Do MF players build AP? Of course not. They have an attack speed steroid and ranged attack that clearly signifies them for an auto-attack carry. Kog Maw is the exact same way.


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scur

Junior Member

05-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffyburrito View Post
I tried showing you math that proves an AP build on Kog Maw is horrible, and there is no math to say otherwise. Spamming your ult in teamfights doesn't contribute as much as a Kog Maw that goes AS or AD. If you really have to stand back and poke with your ult to contribute nothing to a teamfight you don't know how to position yourself in a teamfight. Rylai's is the only thing you could consider slightly decent for upgrading your ult, yet you already have a slow if you're really chasing someone.

Not building AP makes your ult do almost the exact same damage. You only grant about 150 more damage assuming you got mega fed with deathcap and mejai's stacks. This is BEFORE enemy magic resist is calculated. At most, without any enemy magic resist, you are poking them for 400. Once again, an auto-attack from an AS or AD Kog Maw, that late into the game, will do more damage than one ult.

Kog's ult is meant for chasing and poking. It doesn't do enough damage to carry. Consider that Miss Fortune also has AP on 3 of her skills, and better ratios even. Do MF players build AP? Of course not. They have an attack speed steroid and ranged attack that clearly signifies them for an auto-attack carry. Kog Maw is the exact same way.
it's a .5 ratio with the last patch, so 250 instead of 150