Teemo Remake - Change him from pure rdps to support/utility/debuffer?

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Zeta

Senior Member

03-20-2010

Quote:
Please, Please don't change him! He's fine like he is.
Teemo is my most played character. I really enjoy playing him and he's really balanced. He has a really good poisen, a blind shot, mushrooms and a speed boost. It all is like it should be.

He can lane everywhere and can go Shroom/poisen ap, Phys dps or debuff. He has many variations and everyone can play him as he want. He is a perfect hybrid char, supporting team. So why should he get changed? There is just no point in it. My scores are way over negative and i win mostly, but He's defently not op cause some characters cancel him.

Means, he DOESN'T need a remake.
When you get out of mid-low tier and people become smart enough to buy Oracle and farm your shrooms, you'll find he becomes useless compared to any other ranged dps, or poison character.


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Craixis

Senior Member

03-20-2010

I beg to differ, that blind dart can ruin any physical carry's day...
Along with planting a shroom beside said dps, they get stuck with the choice to either fight you or run now, even if you have low HP, there's a good chance that you can walk out if it with a kill because of high damage/ DoT damage.
Sure, he's not as great as an Ashe or a Gangplank in the dps department, but the ability to blind the strongest, non caster enemy can really make/break the game. There's also the advantage of setting up escapes with shrooms, even if they pick up oracle, they have to stop and shoot it, buying you, or your allies, time to bail.
Higher ELO he's still useful, shrooms make great Wards for dragon/Barren, while also protecting allies from possible ganks (shroom goes down, you know someone's near)


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Zeta

Senior Member

03-20-2010

Quote:
I beg to differ, that blind dart can ruin any physical carry's day...
The problem being that running without a physical carry is perfectly viable at high tier.

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Sure, he's not as great as an Ashe or a Gangplank in the dps department, but the ability to blind the strongest, non caster enemy can really make/break the game. There's also the advantage of setting up escapes with shrooms, even if they pick up oracle, they have to stop and shoot it, buying you, or your allies, time to bail.
Casters are the most powerful enemies . . .

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Higher ELO he's still useful, shrooms make great Wards for dragon/Barren, while also protecting allies from possible ganks (shroom goes down, you know someone's near)
The problem being that Shaco and Nid can also slap down wards and contribute more.

I'll take a mage with cc/exhaust as an anti-carry over Teemo.

Low tier is pretty much all physical dps, which is the only place Teemo does well.

High tier is pretty much all mages and tanks, which is where Teemo gets face-rolled.


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OctopusDropkick

Senior Member

03-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
Teemo's long list of problems taken from another topic:


Teemo needs a remake, and I think the way to go with him might be to give him more debuffs. It gives him a fairly unique role not filled by many other characters in the game. It gives him a solid role in teamfights (enter the battle, lay some debuffs, gtfo), and it would actually make him a Champion who used more than Q and R.

So this is the idea I've been toying with:

Blinding Dart - Keep it the same.
Noxious Trap - Keep it the same.
Move Quick - Ditch camouflage, it's a joke. Make Move Quick his passive.

Toxic Shot
Passive: Teemo's basic attacks poison their target for 8 / 14 / 21 / 28 / 35 (+0.15 per ability power) magical damage each second for 5 seconds.

Active: Teemo's Toxic shot becomes more powerful for 10 seconds. It lasts for 7 seconds instead of 5 and reduces reduces healing and health regeneration by 50%.

Spell Stats
Cooldown
45 seconds

Cost
50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 Mana

Range 1

Scout's Bounty (Replaces Move Quick as active)

Teemo marks an enemy with special tree sap, causing it to smell awful and lower their defenses.

Reveals the target for 12 seconds. Champion armor and magic resistance is reduced by 20/25/30/35/40% for the duration. Teemo gains 3 / 5 / 7 / 9 / 11 extra gold if the target is killed with the debuff on them.

Spell Stats
Cooldown
22 Seconds

Cost
60/75/90/105/120 Mana

Range
600

This turns Teemo into the go-to support Champion for debuffs, which is a niche that has not yet been filled.
I like where you're going with this remake. However how do you think people will play Teemo given the remake? I imagine we'll see the same AD orientation as before. Which is strange, because he has 3 skills that utilize AP. So he is still stuck in this awkward no-mans land of AP/AD hybrid without actually working out well, unlike Card Master, Jax, or Ezrael, which are success stories.

I mean yeah his passive is terrible, replacing it back (again) with Move Quick is the better choice. Also having more of a team player skill (% debuff) is very useful. But we'll still be seeing Teemo built for AD with unused AP skills. Ideally I'd like to see this fixed somehow.

If Teemo is to be a hybrid character let's see some synergy with his basic skills that support this. At the time I don't see it, so he is still stuck in that no-mans land.


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Yordle

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Senior Member

03-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
Teemo's long list of problems taken from another topic:


Teemo needs a remake, and I think the way to go with him might be to give him more debuffs. It gives him a fairly unique role not filled by many other characters in the game. It gives him a solid role in teamfights (enter the battle, lay some debuffs, gtfo), and it would actually make him a Champion who used more than Q and R.

So this is the idea I've been toying with:

Blinding Dart - Keep it the same.
Noxious Trap - Keep it the same.
Move Quick - Ditch camouflage, it's a joke. Make Move Quick his passive.

Toxic Shot
Passive: Teemo's basic attacks poison their target for 8 / 14 / 21 / 28 / 35 (+0.15 per ability power) magical damage each second for 5 seconds.

Active: Teemo's Toxic shot becomes more powerful for 10 seconds. It lasts for 7 seconds instead of 5 and reduces reduces healing and health regeneration by 50%.

Spell Stats
Cooldown
45 seconds

Cost
50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 Mana

Range 1

Scout's Bounty (Replaces Move Quick as active)

Teemo marks an enemy with special tree sap, causing it to smell awful and lower their defenses.

Reveals the target for 12 seconds. Champion armor and magic resistance is reduced by 20/25/30/35/40% for the duration. Teemo gains 3 / 5 / 7 / 9 / 11 extra gold if the target is killed with the debuff on them.

Spell Stats
Cooldown
22 Seconds

Cost
60/75/90/105/120 Mana

Range
600

This turns Teemo into the go-to support Champion for debuffs, which is a niche that has not yet been filled.
I love your ideas Zeta but one thing I didn't like was how you were bringing bounty hunter into the game D;


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Zeta

Senior Member

03-20-2010

Quote:
If Teemo is to be a hybrid character let's see some synergy with his basic skills that support this. At the time I don't see it, so he is still stuck in that no-mans land.
How about changing him so that the initial damage from all of his skills works of AD, but the dots all scale off AP, and with better ratios?


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jonsoload

Member

03-20-2010

I guess Teemo does need some kind of a remake. The most successfull Teemos I've seen only play offensive support combined with banshee to help the carry sustain killing. Other than that I really don't see a fit build for him.


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Zeta

Senior Member

03-20-2010

Quote:
I love your ideas Zeta but one thing I didn't like was how you were bringing bounty hunter into the game D;
But that role fits Teemo so freaking well! Gondar is a great source of inspiration!

Quote:
If Teemo is to be a hybrid character let's see some synergy with his basic skills that support this. At the time I don't see it, so he is still stuck in that no-mans land.
To go on as I was saying, making Teemo a better hybrid requires making his abilities all scale with both AP and attack damage in some way. Just like Jax or TF.


Q: Debilitating Darts (Changed from Blinding Dart)
Active: Deals 90 / 140 / 190 / 240 / 300 (+.8 per ability power) magic damage and causes the target to miss all of their attacks for 1.6/2.2/2.8/3.4/4 seconds.

Passive: Teemo's critical hits deal an additonal 20/40/60/80/100% physical damage.

W: Toxic Shot
Passive: Teemo's basic attacks poison their target for 8 / 14 / 21 / 28 / 35 (+0.15 per ability power) magical damage each second for 5 seconds.

Active: Teemo's Toxic shot becomes more powerful for 10 seconds. It lasts for 7 seconds instead of 5 and reduces reduces healing and health regeneration by 50%.

E: Scout's Bounty
Reveals the target for 12 seconds. Champion armor and magic resistance is reduced by 20/25/30/35/40% for the duration. Teemo gains 3 / 5 / 7 / 9 / 11 extra gold if the target is killed with the debuff on them.

R: Noxious Trap

Places a trap which detonates if an enemy steps on it, poisoning nearby enemies. Poisoned enemies take 350 / 500 / 650 (+0.8 per ability power) magic damage and have their movement speed slowed by 30 / 40 / 50% for 5 seconds. Teemo's chance to crit against a target is increased by 10/20/30% when it is debuffed by Noxious Trap.

Passive: Move Quick - After not taking damage for six seconds Teemo's movement speed is increased by 20 / 30 / 40%.

Now, the numbers might have to be adjusted - especially the damage lowered on a few things, but the above is the main thing I have in mind that makes:

* Teemo a great support character.
* Hybrid build make a ton of sense on him.
* Not limited to just being the anti-DPS dude.

Think of the basic concepts, not the numbers;

Q: Blinding AP nuke + increased crit damage.
W: Poisoned AP auto attacks + healing debuff.
E: Armor and magic resist debuff + Vision
R: AP nuke that slows and gives increased crit chance.

It flows together really nicely, I think.


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neolithe

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Senior Member

03-20-2010

Thing is, Jax and TF (AD) can get pretty OP if they get even a couple kills early game and someone experienced behind the keyboard. Teemo plays fine, so what if people can farm your mushrooms, you can have a million out at one time. Be the scout and go where you see people and hunt them down. You guys seem to forget that mushrooms give Teemo map control and the sight to see people coming a mile away. Get creative with where you put mushrooms, don't just throw them out in the open to get farmed.

The move with the 40% armor m. resist reduction is really over powered as it is on 22 sec CD with 12 sec duration. 40% is just a lot and being able to keep it up basically the whole time with 10 seconds of down time. If you got 40% CD reduction, the CD would be around 13 seconds.

The passive is good for ambushing and I've seen people use it all the time. Plenty of champs have passives that they can't utilize all the time. Being that there are only 3 other champs with stealth capability, Teemo's passive is nice.

The only thing I think would be a cool change would be making move swift to passive where it auto activates 20 seconds after not being hit. But having control of swift movement is probably preferable for players with Teemo as main. A permanent movement buff would be a little strong. Also just because his title says swift scout doesn't mean he is or has to be. Look at shen, ninja tank. nuff said.


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Zeta

Senior Member

03-20-2010

Quote:
The passive is good for ambushing and I've seen people use it all the time. Plenty of champs have passives that they can't utilize all the time. Being that there are only 3 other champs with stealth capability, Teemo's passive is nice.
No, it's garbage. If people are smart enough to farm your shrooms with Oracle, the passive becomes worthless, and you just wast time standing in one place. The only times his passive has any synergy at all is if Teemo has Twitch to back him up for the ambush. Also, all those other champs can freaking move while stealthed, which makes it not useless.
Quote:
A permanent movement buff would be a little strong. Also just because his title says swift scout doesn't mean he is or has to be. Look at shen, ninja tank. nuff said.
Shen fills a role - support tank.

Teemo's only role is anti-DPS. DPS effectiveness is nearly non-existent at high elo, meaning Teemo has no role. Also, almost any mage makes a more effective anti-DPS character than Teemo.
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Teemo plays fine, so what if people can farm your mushrooms, you can have a million out at one time.
You can have 10.
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Be the scout and go where you see people and hunt them down
How does that at all synergyize with his passive? I thought you were supposed to wait 15 minutes and hope someone toddles along and gives you something to do. Not that Teemo has the burst damage to kill someone unless they're melee DPS.
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The move with the 40% armor m. resist reduction is really over powered as it is on 22 sec CD with 12 sec duration. 40% is just a lot and being able to keep it up basically the whole time with 10 seconds of down time. If you got 40% CD reduction, the CD would be around 13 seconds.
Nidalee can do the same thing on a lower cooldown. @_@