AP Kassadin or DPS Kassadin Discussion

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EchoRex

Senior Member

03-17-2010

You're either using stacked Riftwalks after engaging, or you're just hanging out waiting for cool downs to come back up/count down for less damage, which means a longer engagement, than stacking gives. Either way, AP Kass is reliant upon mana pool size for his damage endurance.

And haven't seen anyone say anything about leveling Netherblade to the detriment of Sphere, much less Pulse. Well that is, other than as a straw man argument for why DPS is bad, due to not having an actual coherent argument.

As if someone would decrease their CC and damage potential early for a mildly useful passive based on percentages of something that is low early game. Arguments based on people being idiots, really doesn't discount their attempted playstyle, just those specific people.


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Almagest

Senior Member

03-17-2010

Maybe this makes me a bad Kassadin, but I've never relied on stacked Riftwalks for my damage as an AP Kassadin -- It happens on its own over the course of the fight, but generally I'm flitting in and out of team fights using Null Sphere and Force Pulse for my primary means of damage, and using Riftwalk to escape if I get focused. Then I use Riftwalk to blink in to finish off a weakened hero with the burst combo, but I never do that at the start of a team fight -- It's an invitation to get focused and killed.

My problem with DPS Kassadin is that he has to get stuck in to do the bulk of his damage, since you're investing in his attack damage and attack speed. This means he's close to the action, free to get AoE'd or focused much easier. With AP Kassadin you can keep back a bit, go in and out, and still do your nice damage. Sure you can Riftwalk out if you're getting focused, but you're taking unnecessary damage that an AP Kassadin wouldn't have to worry about as much.

Mejai's Soulstealer was practically made for Kassadin due to how hard he is to kill, and he cascades FAST. DPS Kassadin lacks such an item, aside from Sword of the Occult -- But I think that item is still lackluster in comparison to Mejai's Soulstealer.

One other argument for AP Kassadin -- It's easier to stack both HP and AP at the same time. Rod of Ages and Rylai's Scepter are amazing items (though I rarely get to Rylai's Scepter). Trinity Force is nice, but it's really kind of meh -- The attack damage boost (if I recall correctly) is based off of his base attack damage. Lichbane does this much better on an AP Kassadin. Frozen Mallet is one of my favorite items, and probably the only other viable option in this area I can think of.

I've tried both builds. I view DPS Kassadin as a novelty most of the time; it was fun to play but really, it only seemed to work if the other team was pretty incompetent. Playing DPS Kassadin DID change the way I played AP Kassadin, however. Even if it's just for fun, it's worth playing DPS Kassadin to mess around. But in comparison with AP? I feel AP Kassadin is better.

Wall of text crits you for over 9000 damage.


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RHINO Mk II

Senior Member

03-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almagest View Post
Maybe this makes me a bad Kassadin, but I've never relied on stacked Riftwalks for my damage as an AP Kassadin -- It happens on its own over the course of the fight, but generally I'm flitting in and out of team fights using Null Sphere and Force Pulse for my primary means of damage, and using Riftwalk to escape if I get focused. Then I use Riftwalk to blink in to finish off a weakened hero with the burst combo, but I never do that at the start of a team fight -- It's an invitation to get focused and killed.
I agree. I rarely stack riftwalks intentionally before a fight. I did when I first bought kassadin, playing in practice games with teleport. Riftwalk in fountain, teleport in, instagib, laugh off their accusations. It doesn't tend to stack that high, although once after a teamfight I chased down a Jax with riftwalk only to notice I had it stacked 7 times (and he was under 200 HP, hmmph waste of mana)

That being said, I am a big supporter of AP kass. Much more harassment and chasing potential. I don't have a problem with survivability because I get glacial as my 4th item (cooldown(riftwalks), armor, and mana(riftwalks)) and roll with cleanse+clarity. Cleanse will save you so many times, and clarity is like flash but better with kassadin. It allows you to catch some runners when you're out of mana as well as stack that 5th or 6th riftwalk to finally escape.

There is nothing more hilarious than being the only player alive on your team, rifting in behind the enemy pack to kill their weakest member (who is conveniently hiding at the back for you to pick off) then rifting away and either 1) escaping for many lulz or 2) wasting the enemy team's push time until your allies respawn and it becomes a 4v4 again instead of the 1v5 that it was.


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OmniOblivion

Senior Member

03-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saberin View Post
What do you think is more viable?

I play a DPS Kassadin. I just don't understand why AP Kassadins are so popular. His survivability isn't great with caster items and his scaling doesn't look great to me, however; he has great base attack speed and damage, he has an initiator which doubles as an escape mechanism. He has a slow to force people to stay in his range, and a silence to prevent stuns and counters to him. So, why does everyone prefer him as a caster?

I'm not a high-elo player, I've tried AP Kassadin following guide builds, maybe I'm just playing him wrong, maybe DPS Kassadin is just one of those lower-elo pubstompers who become unviable as teams get more coordinated.

This isn't me asking for help, there's already two Kassadin help threads on the front page of Guides & Strategy at the time of posting. It's a discussion thread about his building.
AP Kassadin nukes like a boss. You can give hell to any champion. It's just keeping him alive that I have trouble with...

Null Sphere (bread-and-butter) silences so the other cannot counterattack effectively, then use Force Pulse (his main "nuke") to finish off the champion. You can mix in a little DPS to drain/restore mana for atuoattacks.


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BladeKnightofEa

Senior Member

03-17-2010

have it your own way then


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

03-17-2010

That build blows monkeysack. Any concept of "hybrid" implies greater than minute melee contact time. This necessitates substantive HP -- pure AP spam includes a Catalyst-> RoA as a typical item. Hybrid implies a ****ton more to support the playstyle.

Lichbane works; Bloodthirster is all sorts of failure of $ investment.

Rageblade is plausible for the excessive AP stacks, although it means his HP/mana is thinner than it may otherwise be.

Frozen Mallet over Rylai's is sailing on a failboat.

And a Vamp scepter turns Kassadin into Kassafail, and is one of the reasons baddies think he's a **** champion.


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EchoRex

Senior Member

03-17-2010

Wow. Agreed, fail and a half of a Hybrid build.

Try:

Chalice, Mercs, Mejai's, Stark's, Bloodrazor(last complete, early 1k gold razor), Rod of Ages. ~100 Armor, ~120 Resist, 2.5k HP (~5.5k eHP), 160 AD at 1.6/sec before passive, ~50 armor pierce, 200-270 AP with my masteries/runes.

Or:

Chalice, Mercs, Mejai's, Rylais, TriForce, Atma's. ~120 Armor/Resist, 2.6k HP (~6.5k Phys and ~5.8k Mage eHP), ~205 AD at 1.3/sec before passive, ~18 armor pierce, 250-300 AP with my masteries/runes.

First build is a bit more stable and easier to progress due to early Razor giving easy, easy control of golem/lizard, second build is a bit more... volatile when you drop into the middle of the opponents back lines.


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TwoFatNuts

Adjudicator

03-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
That build blows monkeysack. Any concept of "hybrid" implies greater than minute melee contact time. This necessitates substantive HP -- pure AP spam includes a Catalyst-> RoA as a typical item. Hybrid implies a ****ton more to support the playstyle.

Lichbane works; Bloodthirster is all sorts of failure of $ investment.

Rageblade is plausible for the excessive AP stacks, although it means his HP/mana is thinner than it may otherwise be.

Frozen Mallet over Rylai's is sailing on a failboat.

And a Vamp scepter turns Kassadin into Kassafail, and is one of the reasons baddies think he's a **** champion.
This sums it up nicely although I took quite a while rejecting this idea here (presented by mr Echo7) with facts and stats. DPS Kass just doesn't measure up to the potential that an AP build gives. Trying to claim that a DPS Kass will somehow out damage, out survive, chase down and kill a AP Kass is borderline ridiculous. Also, Im not sure how long your team battles last, but you must have some crazy mp stacking to be able to claim that its going to give you enough mana to have an edge mid-fight (noob-blade or otherwise)


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

03-17-2010

Those builds are mostly coherent, although not really what I would build.

More impotantly, a "build" is centered on the first 3500 and 6000 gold (including boots).

What I would look at for a transition build would be along the lines of:

- Catalyst (core)
- Rageblade (core)
- Rylai
- Lichbane
- Catalyst upgrade

Mejai being a random insertion depending on the game.

Stark's just seems inefficient. If you're packing inherent mpen (mastery / marks), that's where I would insert Nashor/SotD/Mandred.

Even if you're looking to some synergy with Kassadin's passive, you're looking to magic damage procs that are enhanced by things Kassadin already specializes in (MPen, etc). You wouldn't logically look for a Stark's debuff that's only going to augment a fraction of your damage output.

-----

Upon reflection, I think the stronger "hybrid" (or rather, AP build that leverages some autoattacks) build would be basically a Lichbane rush on top of a Catalyst/Rageblade.

Then, something like a Mandred can be a specific counter item chosen.


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EchoRex

Senior Member

03-17-2010

Been using as my hybrid core: Mejai's, Mercs, Chalice, Razor. The early razor helps sufficiently for golem/lizard buffs early, while the next choice is to go for more damage or more AP as the next item, opposition depending.

Haven't really tried the Rageblade builds out yet, though probably going to be doing that today, it seems custom made for this build style, though have been leery its stack needs.


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