AP Kassadin or DPS Kassadin Discussion

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Saberin

Senior Member

03-16-2010

What do you think is more viable?

I play a DPS Kassadin. I just don't understand why AP Kassadins are so popular. His survivability isn't great with caster items and his scaling doesn't look great to me, however; he has great base attack speed and damage, he has an initiator which doubles as an escape mechanism. He has a slow to force people to stay in his range, and a silence to prevent stuns and counters to him. So, why does everyone prefer him as a caster?

I'm not a high-elo player, I've tried AP Kassadin following guide builds, maybe I'm just playing him wrong, maybe DPS Kassadin is just one of those lower-elo pubstompers who become unviable as teams get more coordinated.

This isn't me asking for help, there's already two Kassadin help threads on the front page of Guides & Strategy at the time of posting. It's a discussion thread about his building.


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WinterKnight

Senior Member

03-16-2010

AP Kassadin is popular for several reasons.

One, there are much better melee dps'ers than kass. None of Kassadin's autoattacks are modified by abilities unlike Nasus w/ Siphoning Strike, Jax w/ Unrelenting Assault, etc. Also Kass is a total mana ***** and can empty his mana pool with just 3 blinks, making it essentially useless for chasing as once the the slow from force pulse is gone, people can escape fairly easily because you can't spam enough spells to get it back up without going oom.

Two, with some ability power, cooldown reduction, and a decent mana pool, Kassadin can take any caster with a 2.6 second silence (max rank) that he can use every couple of seconds, an aoe slow that hits incredibly hard and that you can use on almost every cooldown with some spell spam, and a blink that you can use repeatedly even with the stacking buff. Also, his Null Sphere and Force Pulse scaling is great (at .7 and .8, respectively) considering you can use them so often.

You also complained about survivabiliy with caster items, have you included Rod of Ages in your build? That's all of the health I usually need considering I can escape any gank attempt short of a 4-5 person chain cc by just blinking over a wall or two.

To summarize, a good AP kassadin can shut down most other casters (like Ryze, who lives and dies by his burst, or Fiddle, who can have both the channel for his ulti and his drain interrupted) because he can spam his null sphere much more effectively than DPS kassadin and any other dps could pretty much take a dps kassadin to the cleaners because they can out damage him fairly quickly.


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Contagious Cure

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Senior Member

03-16-2010

Because he needs a lot of farm to compete as a physical DPS. He doesn't have an ability that gives his auto-attack more attack speed or more damage. Meaning he needs more items just to get on par with other DPS specialists like Tristana, Twitch or Yi. While in pub games you might get to farm up a storm, against a team that has any clue about lane control, you're not going to be able to do that.

spammable nukes + dmg from lichbane and flash-like escape is what makes his AP build so attractive.


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haaaaaaaalp

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Senior Member

03-16-2010

AP kass does some pretty good aoe damage. He can usually get 2-3 pulses in a team fight which adds up to some ridiculous damage. Also, Kass has problems tanking so AP allows him to do burst damage and then run away.

If you are having problems playing AP kass, you are probably being a little too agressive. You should only melee someone if you are absolutely sure you aren't going to take a lot of damage. In a team fight, you should try to ult/pulse the other team and then run away until both of those spells are ready again. Doing a second/third round of pulse is going to do more damage than any sort of melee attack you can generate. Also, with the new zhonya, you can simply burst, statis, and burst again.


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JunkRamen

Senior Member

03-16-2010

I'm curious as to what makes you think DPS Kassadin has any better survivability than AP Kassadin. If anything, it's the other way around.


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Madawc

Senior Member

03-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkRamen View Post
I'm curious as to what makes you think DPS Kassadin has any better survivability than AP Kassadin. If anything, it's the other way around.
kassadin relies on his ult to flee after his burst, after casting riftwalk the mana cost is increased exponetionally. he requires a large mana pool to survive and continue casting.


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JunkRamen

Senior Member

03-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madawc View Post
kassadin relies on his ult to flee after his burst, after casting riftwalk the mana cost is increased exponetionally. he requires a large mana pool to survive and continue casting.
AP Kassadin is less reliant on Riftwalk to land hits and generally has a much larger mana pool than DPS Kassadin.


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EchoRex

Senior Member

03-17-2010

Where's option three, Hybrid build?

Why would you ignore half of a champion, in either direction of AP or DPS, when both together are stronger than either/or?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dethmetal View Post
AP Kassadin is popular for several reasons.

One, there are much better melee dps'ers than kass. None of Kassadin's autoattacks are modified by abilities unlike Nasus w/ Siphoning Strike, Jax w/ Unrelenting Assault, etc. Also Kass is a total mana ***** and can empty his mana pool with just 3 blinks, making it essentially useless for chasing as once the the slow from force pulse is gone, people can escape fairly easily because you can't spam enough spells to get it back up without going oom.
Except unlike AP Kassadin, atleast and especially in a Hybrid build, most DPS builds have exceptional and sustained mana regen. I've, personally, never been lacking on attack speed with one, or even no, attack speed items thanks to the passive. Nor been unable to catch anyone at all who has tried to run due to not having enough mana.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dethmetal View Post
Two, with some ability power, cooldown reduction, and a decent mana pool, Kassadin can take any caster with a 2.6 second silence (max rank) that he can use every couple of seconds, an aoe slow that hits incredibly hard and that you can use on almost every cooldown with some spell spam, and a blink that you can use repeatedly even with the stacking buff. Also, his Null Sphere and Force Pulse scaling is great (at .7 and .8, respectively) considering you can use them so often.
DPS Kassadin can do the same thing, but without being near dry of mana at the end of the engagement.

But, based on the AP scales you point out, the burst factor is why it is best to play Hybrid. You are able to take advantage of significant burst during initiation, and deal quick and strong attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dethmetal View Post
You also complained about survivabiliy with caster items, have you included Rod of Ages in your build? That's all of the health I usually need considering I can escape any gank attempt short of a 4-5 person chain cc by just blinking over a wall or two.
The you haven't played people who are focusing on damage the same way you yourself are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dethmetal View Post
To summarize, a good AP kassadin can shut down most other casters (like Ryze, who lives and dies by his burst, or Fiddle, who can have both the channel for his ulti and his drain interrupted) because he can spam his null sphere much more effectively than DPS kassadin and any other dps could pretty much take a dps kassadin to the cleaners because they can out damage him fairly quickly.
Unless of course you're playing against a DPS focused hybrid, at which point you will die because you're out of mana, on cool down, and unable to run away while the other Kassadin is regaining mana between bursts and regaining health continuously. If both have the same, or near same gold investment.

I've been laughing for a couple weeks now at every MageKass that tries to jump my Hybrid, and thanked them for the two charges.

The difference between the three, is playstyle.

DPS builds are played as a Carry, they are reliant upon initiation for team fights due to having generally lower health, but higher mitigation allowing them to soak decent damage despite the lower buffer if they engage after others have eaten the heaviest damage bursts. This build is less reliant upon timing on the initial engagement. The largest problem is rather mediocre damage early/mid game for the chance of being a high damage Carry later. Generally not worth the gamble.

While AP builds are played as a Mage, they have very narrow windows in which they are engaged due to exceptionally high burst, their timing needs to be much more exact due to their Burst being the entirety of their damage. This build generally has a higher pure health buffer, but it is ripped off quickly if engaged for long due to lower mitigation. This build is very reliant upon getting kills to progress quickly into having damage and survivability in enough quantity of either to be effective.

Hybrid is more reliant upon the extent of initiation than an AP, but less reliant than a DPS due to significantly higher initial burst to help the team end the fight quicker. The other side is like AP, the timing is much more important due to getting the full effect of the burst in on time while having enough mana to chase, which is helped by normally very high mana regen and quick Netherblade strikes. This build only works due to gaining significant attack speed from the passive when engaged, otherwise the itemization just couldn't support the demands with only six slots.

It is impossible to do well with any of the build types if you try to play them the same way as you would the other build types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkRamen View Post
I'm curious as to what makes you think DPS Kassadin has any better survivability than AP Kassadin. If anything, it's the other way around.
DPS Kassadin generally has higher mitigation values, but lower health, so it is a wash on survivability.

As for the mana and CDR discussion; Any competent build for DPS or AP is going to be near cap for CDR. While AP Kass is reliant upon mana pool size to deliver a stacked Riftwalk burst, which leaves him blue pilling or hiding for a time; DPS Kass is reliant upon mana regen/netherblade, which allows a much shorter downtime between engagements with the much less relied upon Pulse/Sphere/Riftwalk bursts.
_


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

03-17-2010

Blowing your mana on a stacked Riftwalk isn't core to an AP build.

The issue with leveling failblade is that you're leaving Pulse or Void at a lesser rank. Getting 1 rank of failblade is plausible in some ***** sense of the world, but weak.


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TG kaz

Member

03-17-2010

I prefer a melee kass just because after you null sphere rift and pulse most people start to run and you have the ability to finish them off before they get to safety.


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