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What do you think of this idea?

I think it could help! 126 87.5%
I won't fix anything. 18 12.5%
Voters 144 .

An Alternative to Leavers

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Orphan Harvest

Recruiter

05-21-2011

Quote:
Karl the Pagan:
Thank you for your incredibly detailed proposal. We will consider this and other ideas for combating the leaver problem.

Please if you agree or disagree with this idea let us know what you think in this thread.


First off, I want to say thank you for everyone who has supported this thread (even those that haven't) and thank you Karl the Pagan for taking notice! It is always nice to see a red acknowledge a post! Keep the questions and suggestions coming!
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Quote:
Bane Wraith:
....I don't understand. You desire a Second voluntary leave option, other than the Quitting one there already is? Maybe I missed something...?


Quote:
Umahr:
Also, there should be an option to LOCK YOURSELF OUT. I may not want to leave, but if something dire comes up and I need to DC, I would like to be able to let my team have another player as soon as possible. Of course you will still be forbidden from joining new games until the one you quit finishes.


I may not have been entirely clear here. I'll explain a little better. Yes, there is already an option to leave in the game: ESC and then Exit. However, this doesn't mean that someone who uses this option always needs to leave. There have been times where I had to exit the game because I was having a graphical error. This second option will be an immediate lock out. The system would not wait for a reconnect. It would immediately open up a slot form someone looking to join in-progress games. Like Umahr had mentioned, this would be available for someone who HAS to disconnect.

Quote:
Stexe:
The idea has been suggested since the original beta. It has been shot down many times due to a variety of reasons -- primarily that someone who leaves a game is typically leaving because they rage quit because they were losing. Who would want to join a game where their team is losing?


Good point, in particular your last sentence. Why would anyone want to sign into the Tribunal and judge cases? If you want to look at what the Tribunal actually isl; it is literally an unpaid customer support position. It allows RIOT to handle a huge number of cases without actually handling them within their company. People like to feel like they are making a difference, and like the Tribunal, you actually are making a difference. Sorry for that little rant, but what i am trying to say is that I think there would be a significant number of players that would like to try and make a difference!



Quote:
Stexe:
Also, what if the player accidentally left and wants to come back?


Please see this part of my post:
Quote:
iBeeZy:

The above list would probably prove to be the hardest thing to figure out on when the appropriate time to "let that person go" is. Being reasonable, I think there could at least be some guidelines that the system could check before giving that person "the boot" permanently from that game:
  • If player has X Number of Reconnects = Lock Out
  • If player has been disconnected for X Number of Minutes = Lock Out
  • If player has been AFK for X Number of Minutes = Kick and Lock Out
  • If player has been in X Size Radius for X Number of Minutes = Kick and Lock Out (This would be to keep players from going "AFK" but not receiving the leaver status. Basically moving or hitting space bar a few times every minute or so)
  • If player has not performed an ability or attacked an enemy champion or minion in X Number of minutes = Kick and Lock Out (Another fail-safe for the latter reason)
  • A ratio check on Games Player to Games Left. If the player has a higher than average ratio of games left, the system will be more inclined to kick and lock out earlier.

These are guidelines though. I find it very hard that someone would "accidentally" leave short of knocking over their modem/router, hitting their computer's power button, etc.

Quote:
Stexe:
Finally, there is a number of tech issues with something like that. If leavers continue to be a problem after the Tribunal comes around full force, then I'd bring up the idea again. But right now I don't think this is the best use of Riot's time.


Firstly--and I know this sounds harsh via text, but I don't mean it to be--how do you know what the best use of RIOT's time is? They are obviously striving for the best possible experience with things like the YouTube videos they put out that have nothing to do with game development, the Tribunal, promotions, etc.

I would also like to know what tech issues came to mind for you? Or were you just thinking of another example? There will always be technical issues. It comes standard in this industry. RIOT will adjust, adapt and unleash the code monkeys!

Keep the comments coming guys!!!


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Voosha

Recruiter

05-21-2011

I think this is a great idea, my back hurts when I have to carry too much.


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THE SILENCEZED

Member

05-22-2011

what if a new player joins the existing game and the old player was stuck in the login queue after getting dced and is trying to enter the game will he b able to join back by kicking the new player,if yes then what if the new player ****ed up his gold and items no one has exactly the same play style,lets say a player wants to join a pre existing game and the player who left the game was playing brand now can the new player who dosent have brand join the game ?


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Nutarama

Senior Member

05-22-2011

I'd rather just have a bot set to turret hugging


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JoaoJMC

Senior Member

05-22-2011

Quote:
iBeeZy:
Four games in a row... four games--three of which were ranked games--had someone leave or rage quit a few minutes in.

Below I would like to propose an idea that isn't a solution to leavers, but it may make the situation that they put you in a little less disadvantageous:

The Problem:

Someone has just left your game. It could have been from the first moment or 30 minutes into the game. You are pissed. You seem to be doing fine, but you just can't seem to pull ahead with four players and you are starting to lose ground. Regardless, you probably won't win without your 5th.

The "Solution":

Introduce, as an option, the ability to join a game already in progress. This would be a player decision that they would choose (or not choose) at the queue selection.

The Whole Picture:

It would be the sole discretion of RIOT (obviously) to decide the method on how this would be detected and/or how long the person would have to be disconnected before permanently locking them out and allowing another player to take that spot. Obviously, there are a number of reasons that a person may disconnect from a game that does not involve malicious intent, such as:
  • Connection or ISP issues
  • Game client issues
  • Power outtage
  • Connectivity issues specific to PVP.NET
  • An unfortunate event where they had to just leave

The above list would probably prove to be the hardest thing to figure out on when the appropriate time to "let that person go" is. Being reasonable, I think there could at least be some guidelines that the system could check before giving that person "the boot" permanently from that game:
  • If player has X Number of Reconnects = Lock Out
  • If player has been disconnected for X Number of Minutes = Lock Out
  • If player has been AFK for X Number of Minutes = Kick and Lock Out
  • If player has been in X Size Radius for X Number of Minutes = Kick and Lock Out (This would be to keep players from going "AFK" but not receiving the leaver status. Basically moving or hitting space bar a few times every minute or so)
  • If player has not performed an ability or attacked an enemy champion or minion in X Number of minutes = Kick and Lock Out (Another fail-safe for the latter reason)
  • A ratio check on Games Player to Games Left. If the player has a higher than average ratio of games left, the system will be more inclined to kick and lock out earlier.

The Inner-Workings:

This would be an opt-in feature. I believe that making this an option that you can tick and un-tick would be too difficult to program in. Mainly because:

1) Going into the settings to tick and un-tick this setting every time you wanted disable or enable the option is a repetitive and eventually annoying step.

2) Because of how quickly full games are found due to RIOT's player-base (average of ~28 seconds), I would guess that if you had the option enabled and built into a normal queue, the frequency in which you would find an game in progress may be slim.

I suggest that it is added to the Queue options after hitting play. That you have to make a conscious decision to either queue for a new game, or for one in progress. When a game is found you are presented with a prompt like the (poor) example attached to this thread (labeled lol.png). You are given a generous 3 minutes to decide in case you would like to re-spec your Summoner rune pages and masteries.

If you are the adventurous type, you can join the game blindly from the first prompt. Doing this, you are thrown into the game without changing your rune pages or masteries. The only information you get to see is what is on that prompt: Your team, their team and the score. You don't find out what champion you are playing until you hit the loading screen!

If you decide you would like to know more, you can hit the "View Details" button and you will receive one last prompt. It could look something like in the second attachment below (labeled lol2.png). From this screen you can see the champion you are playing, the gold you have, the game time, the K/D/A you are going to start at, what items you have and your current level.

EDIT: I forgot to include this, but I would have the Summoner Spells shown since you probably wouldn't be able to change those while entering a game in progress.

If you are not interested, skip it! If you are ready to go and don't need anything changed, go ahead and hit that Join Button! Want to join, but you need to re-spec? The middle option will allow you to change your masteries and rune pages during the amount of time you have remaining. Again, when this prompt pops up, you have 3 minutes to go through everything. This gives plenty of time to re over the game and change runes and masteries if needed.

I know this is a long post and thank you so much if you took the time to read it! I am just thinking of other ways to alleviate this issue. There are days when I have played for hours and was lucky enough to not encounter one person leaving the game. Alternately, I have also been in streaks where there has been someone that left or went AFK for like 4 games in a row... everyone knows it sucks.

I would love to hear any feed-back, constructive criticism, improvements and maybe even a Red response!

Let me know what you think!

-Ibeezy


I would like to be able to reconnect to games with AFK's or Leaver's. It would let me try and recompensate the community because of the 100 leaves I have. ISP issues, bad Corsair DDR3 Module, Graphic Errors, so many sh** has hapenned to me.

I would do almost anything to have my leaves revoked. I would join 200 games with leavers. Seriously.


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Orphan Harvest

Recruiter

05-22-2011

Quote:
THE SILENCEZED:
what if a new player joins the existing game and the old player was stuck in the login queue after getting dced and is trying to enter the game will he b able to join back by kicking the new player,if yes then what if the new player ****ed up his gold and items no one has exactly the same play style,lets say a player wants to join a pre existing game and the player who left the game was playing brand now can the new player who dosent have brand join the game ?


Well, I wouldn't be able to answer your questions based on what RIOT would do, but I can certainly tell you what my answers would be:
  • I would make sure that there is a grace period from when you disconnect to until you are hit with the queue again. World of Warcraft's queue system comes to mind. (I think RIOT should do this anyway)
  • Once your champion is locked out, you can never get in that game again
  • Your last point can be solved in two ways:
    1. The system will only give you matches based on the champions you own.
    2. As a reward for queuing up in for this gametype, you can play any champion that becomes available with the queue.


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Gradash

Recruiter

05-22-2011

Quote:
Stexe:
The idea has been suggested since the original beta. It has been shot down many times due to a variety of reasons -- primarily that someone who leaves a game is typically leaving because they rage quit because they were losing. Who would want to join a game where their team is losing? Also, what if the player accidentally left and wants to come back?

Finally, there is a number of tech issues with something like that. If leavers continue to be a problem after the Tribunal comes around full force, then I'd bring up the idea again. But right now I don't think this is the best use of Riot's time.


So I have a more efficient solution for this.

Replace the leaver player for a bot.

The bot assumes the champ of deserter player, he would be controlled by a bot at an intermediate level.

Some people may complain saying that the bot does not play well, I've seen many people far worse than the bots, honestly.

And when the player came back, He would take control of the bot again.
And the player would receive a deserter Penalty XP / IP equal to 1% / minute was out.
If the bot played more than 50% of the match in place of a player, he loses 100% of the XP / IP.

I think this is the best way to solve the problem.


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Mibuwolf

Member

05-22-2011

I like this idea. Not sure on implementation exactly, but Riot could give this a try at least.


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Orphan Harvest

Recruiter

05-23-2011

Quote:
Gradash:
So I have a more efficient solution for this.

Replace the leaver player for a bot.

The bot assumes the champ of deserter player, he would be controlled by a bot at an intermediate level.

Some people may complain saying that the bot does not play well, I've seen many people far worse than the bots, honestly.

And when the player came back, He would take control of the bot again.
And the player would receive a deserter Penalty XP / IP equal to 1% / minute was out.
If the bot played more than 50% of the match in place of a player, he loses 100% of the XP / IP.

I think this is the best way to solve the problem.


Yes this is more efficient, but I also think that the majority of people would still rather be a man down and gain extra solo xp than have a bot.

I think that RIOT needs to get down about 3 to 4 different AI difficulty algorithms before of bot will replace a human: Noob, Basic, Intermediate, Hard. Then--based off of the games average ELO--a bot would be added to the game to cover for the missing person. Higher ELOs would get the harder bots, and lower the easier.

But the bot system has to be good. If it isn't, it will open a literal rage-storm of people flooding the forums about how a bot made them lose the game they could have won with a 4v5 or that it isn't good enough, etc.

I know RIOT is trying to make a better AI system... and seriously, kudos to them for continually trying because programming AI for these game types is incredibly difficult. It isn't like programming a bot to win at chess, that is just number crunching. There are just too many variables to take into consideration.

I know it was just a solution, but 1% is far, far too low for it to be a penalty. If your IP is under 100, it is then just a decimal.


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Bane Wraith

Senior Member

05-23-2011

Quote:
iBeeZy:

But the bot system has to be good. If it isn't, it will open a literal rage-storm of people flooding the forums about how a bot made them lose the game they could have won with a 4v5 or that it isn't good enough, etc.


...Sorry, good iBeeZy =P

I don't think it completely matters How good the bots are; There will Still be that rage-storm. Players can accept, to an extent, that Other players are better or worse than they are; The thing they can possibly complain about then is matchmaking. However, throwing a Bot into the issue turns All their eyes on Riot itself. This bot is too good? Blame Riot. This bot is horrible? Blame Riot. We might as well be facing a team of these bots, but I chose to play PvP today? Blame Riot. Bots, good or bad, are nothing like an intelligent human? Blame Riot. Sorakabot stole my cookie? Blame Riot.

....I have to say I don't see a solution Anywhere near, when it comes down to replacing a Human with a Machine, on the fields of justice. ( No offense, Blitzcrank)

Stick with what you originally have! Make it better, Make it efficient, Introduce the new meta that is the "Filler player",

...I discourage ( but can't really stop you from ) including virtually Any Bonus or penalty due to the whims of a leaver... But above all: Bots Are Not The Answer