AP Sivir--no seriously, AP Sivir

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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-16-2010

edit: due to sivir's range nerf, Ricochet is less preferable. Boomerang ftw.

I thought it would be neat to try. I never seem to take advantage of her passive using the aura build (you have to stand and auto-attack with your ult on and she's squishy).

So I did a practice game first: Mejai's (cuz it's easy to kill bots), Rylai's Scepter, Z-ring, sorc boots, Chalice (later an Archangel Scepter), frozen heart. I had a ridiculous 500+ AP.

By the end of the game, I could hit an enemy champ hugging the turret (out of turret range) for well over 1k damage (min damage is 40%). If 2 enemy were in the same place, 1 gets hit for 1k, the other for 800. Since Rylai's slows the target for a second, the second swipe is more likely to happen.

So, I tried translating this to a real game (solo-q) with no confidence in Mejai's yet. My record was positive and we won both games (build varied but summoner skills were always Teleport and Clarity with all CD and magic pen masteries, magic pen red runes, movement quints, and clarity for the rest).

Findings from having a 400+dmg boomerang in a real game:
1. With some AP and magic pen, sivir farms just as well with Boomerang as with Ricochet (possibly better--whole wave lines turn into gold).
2. Her ult is still good, but more for pushing towers with a DPS'er or escaping rather than solo push. Also great for team fights and chasing.
3. Constantly moving and throwing Boomerangs takes full advantage of her passive dodge ability.
4. You can skill-shot kill in bushes (hence why I use clarity), through walls (through base walls or inner turrets seems the most effective), and at turrets.
5. You can steal neutral kills from a significant distance.
6. You can get 2-3 kills with one spell in a team fight and be no where near the enemy range (triple kill actually happened dealing about 600 to each enemy).
7. Ult and range of a killing/slowing Boomerang makes you an effective chaser.

Sivir gets targeted, and she's normally squishy. So, I've been pushing Rylai's or Rod of Ages after boots and/or chalice. With chalice, I never have to turn W off, but that's awfully expensive (and I level it dead last since it really only helps auto attacks).

Has anyone else tried an AP Sivir build? Any (supportive) ideas to complete the build?

Boots, Rod of Ages/Rylai's Scepter, ? ? ?

EDIT: I read the patch notes on z-ring and Giant's Belt (should decrease Rylai's Scepter by 40 as well). I think the build should go catalyst, boots, rod of ages, blasting wand x3 > z-ring. That puts final AP around 250 (~7600 gold) without runes or the last 3 items. That means that Boomerang will hit for 530, 477, 429, 386, 347, 312, 281, 253, 228, 212 (min), 212, etc.

Double hits on a single target is 1007 damage (not counting MR or masteries or anything). I think that's a really respectable nuke with the potential to wipe out a team.

EDIT:
Aurax's hybrid build:
Haunting Guise
Sorcerers Boots
Nashors Tooth
Rylais
Rageblade
Abyssal Scepter or Void Staff


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GuyGin

Senior Member

03-16-2010

Interesting Idea. I'd like to see the prospect of a more hybrid sivir also:
Lichbane + Guinsoo's + rylia's

Does the Lichbane proc damage carry over to riccochet dmg?

Also, what runes would you suggest, I may have to try this if I can have a suitable rune page.

Finally, what about CDR and Mpen?


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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-16-2010

My runes (see above) were mpen red, move quint, Mp5 blue/yellow. I still needed mp5 items because the cost of Boomerang increases with level (and I'm maxing it quickly). I use it to harass, push, and kill so it's almost always on cd.

The lichbane proc will only fire on the first thing your attack hits (not the ricochet targets). I did try sheen in an earlier test and although the proc didn't fire like I wanted, I think the damage calculation was right (needs more tests). For instance, your first hit is 180% of normal, so the secondary target takes a little less from 180% (not from 100%). I'll try to investigate that. But even still, Boomerang isn't "spammable" like some abilities.

If that's the case, lichbane/hybrid would allow for some sick boomerang + ricochet damage.

CDR was vital every time I played. I maxed it in masteries, went for golem every time I could, and still needed to build something like glacial shroud > frozen heart or soul shroud in a defensive slot. Due to the fact that this build is mana hungry till you get chalice, you may not be able to afford more CDR from runes (I may even back off the masteries a little if I can find the right item combo).

Haunting guise seems like a good thing to start (mpen, hp5, mp5) but I doubt it will keep up with my mana needs like chalice. I may just have to go Doran's shield/regrowth pendant, boots, chalice and not worry about upgrading the pendant for a (long) while.


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ironstove

Member

03-16-2010

I am going to try this because I am bored. I have always known boomerang is an awesome skill and can kill full waves, never thought about how strong though. Will post feedback.


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zarthforums

Senior Member

03-16-2010

Ricochet is AD based. So is your ult. The problem with ap sivir is that you only have 1 skill that applies to AP. Once you use it, you're very vulnerable. The chances that you miss the boomerange is much higher than you missing most of your autoattacks. Good AD sivirs almost always has a starks which benefits your team more than anything AP has to offer.


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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by zarthforums View Post
Ricochet is AD based. So is your ult. The problem with ap sivir is that you only have 1 skill that applies to AP. Once you use it, you're very vulnerable. The chances that you miss the boomerange is much higher than you missing most of your autoattacks. Good AD sivirs almost always has a starks which benefits your team more than anything AP has to offer.
Yes, ricochet is AD based, but the range is decreasing with this patch and it ignores her passive. Her ult has nothing to do with AD (unless you're standing still auto-attacking). And you can add AP to your attacks through lichbane or against turrets.

It's not the same ole sivir, I agree. Starks is still a good item--agreed (just not for this build). But if you play a nuking role instead of an aura bot, you can have just as much impact on the game and really surprise some folks who don't bother looking at what you bought (like when I 1v1 trucked a Gangplank last night in the late game).


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Slide

Senior Member

03-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoSponge View Post
By the end of the game, I could hit an enemy champ hugging the turret (out of turret range) for about 1k damage (second hit of boomerang does 40%).
Nope.

First target hit takes 100%, Second target hit takes 90% damage, third takes 80%, etc down to a minimum of 40%.

Its actually better then you described it.

What we should really be looking at is if a particular unit counts as a single target, regardless of how many times the boomerang hits. I dont believe it does, but its an interesting question.

Regardless, AP Sivir is trash. Its a joke build for stomping ultra noobs (or bots, as in this case).


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Wapistan

Junior Member

03-16-2010

I'm sorry. I just can't buy into the idea of an AP Sivir. I went up against one with my standard Sivir build (Chalice, Mercs, Starks, Thirster) and ended up with far better stats (she went 4/5/5, I went 16/8/18).

Here's the problem: BB is one of the **** easiest skill shots to avoid. And if you get hit once, chances are you're moving away to avoid the second hit.

I don't know. Might try with the range nerf to see how effective an AP Siv could be. I have practiced with the Rylai's, and that does seem to give Siv at least some semblance of CC, and improve the chances of double-shotting.


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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by QUICKSLIDE View Post
Nope.

First target hit takes 100%, Second target hit takes 90% damage, third takes 80%, etc down to a minimum of 40%.

Its actually better then you described it.

What we should really be looking at is if a particular unit counts as a single target, regardless of how many times the boomerang hits. I dont believe it does, but its an interesting question.

Regardless, AP Sivir is trash. Its a joke build for stomping ultra noobs (or bots, as in this case).
I put a better calculation in the edit portion. I am also working under the impression of every hit decreases by 10%. Whether it's 90% of the original or 90% of the last hit, I don't know for sure.

possibility #1 : 530 > 477 > 429 > 386, 347, 312, 281, 253, 228, 212 (min)
possibility #2 : 530 > 477 > 381 > 267 > 212 (min)

I agree, the first test was a bot game--I think I said that. But I played 2 real games as solo-q, and we won. I even had a strong showing (triple killed once) despite trying to tank things late game facilitating some stupid deaths on my part.

I don't really care about the negative votes, I'm experimenting and looking for others who want to continue the experiment. If you don't agree, that's fine, but save the down votes for trolls, people who can't spell, poor grammar, etc.

@Quickslide,

On a side note, I'm still a big fan of your Sivir. However, my play style differs and I'm sure my skill level is way lower. As I got better with skill shots, I was frustrated that sivir's Boomerang did hardly any damage even if I hit twice. Maybe one day I will be able to play Sivir your way and not suck.


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nicosharp

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Senior Member

03-16-2010

i've seen an ap sivir carry the hell out of my team before at a high level. It does work to some extent, It is also pretty easy to get FB's with her if played aggressively. My buddy and I used to run dual mana manip sivir+alistar in lane. it was pretty nasty boomerang harrass.


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