Master Yi needs Meditate changed with something more appropriate.

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Hedgehog

Senior Member

08-29-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendrael View Post
If you're playing Master Yi with anything else than Wuju Style/Meditation early on (boots plus 1/2 manapots in your bagpack) and survive it your enemies aren't doing a very good job.
The only scenario where alpha strike supports your farming is the one, where your enemy pinpoints you to your own tower hindering your lasthitting, but in most cases you can prevent that from happening.
There is no reason to value harassing your enemy over farming money with lasthits before you get at least your ultimate. If you start out with Wuju Style and Meditation (3/2 incase of low harassment potential on the enemy side, other way round if they're scary) you can pick up Alpha Strike with 7, which should come nearly at the same time as your first phage lands in your inventory (mostly you'll even have Berserker's Greaves ready too). Now you enter the phase of the game in which you can blow up 66% HP people by closing the gap with Alpha Strike followed by firing up your ultimate and Wuju Style and a final right click on your victim.
Youre telling me I play vs bad people and youre starting with boots and mana pots?

Alpha Strike spamming is primarily for harassing your opponents in lane while occasionally being given a few free last hits. Its other use is ofcourse for initiating and catching up to people who are running.

To be honest the real side of it is that if youre killing someone with your ultimate alone without a high level Wuju + Alpha youre playing vs fools or people who simply dont fight back.

EDIT: To pandamine

Thats the point, its an OUT OF COMBAT HEAL. Against any players who have team play youre going to be focused first because Yi has low health and his only survival mechanic is his high MS and immunity to slow with his ultimate. As soon as he goes in he will be stunned, focused first or AoE to death.


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Furor

Senior Member

08-29-2009

I don't find Meditate very useful, early mid or late.

Usually one Regrowth for HP regen is enough to survive against pretty much any champ early on if you play smart and stay out of range while going in for last-hits. Using Alpha Strike for last-hitting usually catches players off guard and since a lot of stuns/snares require aiming, you can immediately run off when you're done.

That also goes directly into Philosopher's Stone, which makes Alpha Strike spammable early game and gives extra gold. AKA positive-feedback loop. Otherwise, you're wasting gold on consumables.

I end up never taking Meditate until it's the last thing on my list. I finish games with Yi normally in the 20+ Kills/Assists range, and fewer than 3 deaths.


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kaamos

Adjudicator

08-29-2009

I played Yi intensely before the " all god like melee patch " that made things worse in terms of balance.

I never used Meditate before the patch for surviving on the lane.

Packing armor penetration with a fortitude elixir, first point in Alpha Strike, Exhaust and Flash/Ghost - depends on the mood , kind of makes you a hell of a harasser for 4 minutes.

If you get a caster on the bot/top lane / 2 casters etc - you can easily have a fb. One hit - 20% hp or more.

I don't like Meditate as it doesn't fit his play style at all. At least, my play style.

My view of the alternate skill :

Name goes here ( Active / Passive )

Active - Enables him to attack at the same time x-1 opponents that are attacking him at any given moment for y seconds ( x - nr of opponents that are attacking you ; where y < 4 sec )

Passive - Every time M. Yi uses a skill, he can blend with the environment, becoming inviz for 1.5 ( maybe 1 s ) seconds, being able to attack during that duration without breaking inviz.

If M. Yi uses Name goes here, he will not be able to blend for 20 seconds.

L.E. - Thus, he will have a better synergy with Alpha Strike ( being inviz for 1.5 seconds after using it - you will not be focused instantly ) and with Wuju ( after activating it for the bonus damage, you can activate your new skill, thus making you more effective for team fights, attacking multiple enemies - even if it is for a very short duration )


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r4p3d

Junior Member

08-29-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Play Jax View Post
Oh I see, so lets just replace meditate with a passive, where you revive everytime you die on a 10 minute cooldown. Everytime you kill a hero the cooldown is gone and you're off to another free revive. Think of it as a bonus for your ult where you can hunt people down without being slowed and you know what. Lets make his alpha strike cooldown 2 seconds. So he can be cloud and omni slash every 2 seconds like a true chinese hero should.
that one made me laugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaamos View Post
Name goes here ( Active / Passive )

Active - Enables him to attack at the same time x-1 opponents that are attacking him at any given moment for y seconds ( x - nr of opponents that are attacking you ; where y < 4 sec )

Passive - Every time M. Yi uses a skill, he can blend with the environment, becoming inviz for 1.5 ( maybe 1 s ) seconds, being able to attack during that duration without breaking inviz.

If M. Yi uses Name goes here, he will not be able to blend for 20 seconds.

L.E. - Thus, he will have a better synergy with Alpha Strike ( being inviz for 1.5 seconds after using it - you will not be focused instantly ) and with Wuju ( after activating it for the bonus damage, you can activate your new skill, thus making you more effective for team fights, attacking multiple enemies - even if it is for a very short duration )
yes, good idea. give him unbreakable invis so he can take out 1 champ while hes invis


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kaamos

Adjudicator

08-29-2009

Everybody pops a Clairvoyance in the middle of a battle.

They are not going to change how it works pretty soon.

And 1.5 s / 1 s isn't that much.

It is intended as a " Please, for the love of god, don't focus on me every god damn time " in almost any scenario.

I am not stating that he is weak. Now, he is a pretty solid and viable character to have in the team and to play with but the problem is still there.

The only way to avoid getting killed in less than 2 seconds in 5v5 heavy fights is not to get into that fight for the first 4-5 seconds.

If you would feel better, don't make him able to attack while inviz.


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Garak

Member

08-29-2009

Sounds like the major complaint against Meditation is that its heal is out-of-combat. While I don't play Yi very much, I will point out that unless the enemy player has a stun, you can face-tank while meditating as well. Riot added armor while meditating recently, so this may be intended use and further changes along that line may be in line with the hero design. Just a thought.

If the ability were changed to be in-combat rather than out-of-combat regen, would the ability be more well-recieved? For example, change it to activatable lifesteal. Or a health regen buff that refreshes on creep kill or something. I think that armor, magic resist, or dodge bonuses could be thematically connected to a "meditate" ability, while giving the higher-level goal of survivability.

Another idea would be to let it restore mana as well as health. The additional use of abilities, plus gold not spent on mana items, could lend itself to more damage overall than strict damage abilities. This idea may or may not be patently retarded.


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Kendrael

Junior Member

08-29-2009

Hedgehog, mind giving a reason why you think that boots are a bad starting item (remember that we're not playing dota here)?
To give an example how that's done I'll list my reasoning behind getting them:
My premise for the whole build is, that you do not kill people with Master Yi before you have at least your ultimate and phage, the movement 2 buff is highly recommended aswell. Therefore your earlygame should focus on lasthitting creeps to earn money. Boots as a starting item greatly reduce the time you have to spend in the action zone to dive in and score a lasthit, which basically translates into less damage taken. This results in boots being a fine method of mitigating harassment damage when you're trying to farm with a melee char.
The manapots simply fuel your meditation, so you don't have to leave your lane until you're level 7 and you've got enough gold for the phage/berserker's greaves itemcombo. As you might notice by now, the second reason behind getting boots first is, that they're part of the equipment I'd consider necessary to kill enemy heroes. You might disagree with me on that estimation, but I'll assure you, that no player worth his money will allow you to kill him through alpha strike harassment. Getting those items quick is a huge advantage in my eyes, because your threatpotential skyrockets as soon as the highlander/phage powerhouse is made available to you. With the point in alpha strike at level 7 you should totally be able to gank another lane with a high rate of success, or finish your yet unsuspecting lane opponent.


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Hedgehog

Senior Member

08-30-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendrael View Post
Hedgehog, mind giving a reason why you think that boots are a bad starting item (remember that we're not playing dota here)?
To give an example how that's done I'll list my reasoning behind getting them:
My premise for the whole build is, that you do not kill people with Master Yi before you have at least your ultimate and phage, the movement 2 buff is highly recommended aswell. Therefore your earlygame should focus on lasthitting creeps to earn money. Boots as a starting item greatly reduce the time you have to spend in the action zone to dive in and score a lasthit, which basically translates into less damage taken. This results in boots being a fine method of mitigating harassment damage when you're trying to farm with a melee char.
The manapots simply fuel your meditation, so you don't have to leave your lane until you're level 7 and you've got enough gold for the phage/berserker's greaves itemcombo. As you might notice by now, the second reason behind getting boots first is, that they're part of the equipment I'd consider necessary to kill enemy heroes. You might disagree with me on that estimation, but I'll assure you, that no player worth his money will allow you to kill him through alpha strike harassment. Getting those items quick is a huge advantage in my eyes, because your threatpotential skyrockets as soon as the highlander/phage powerhouse is made available to you. With the point in alpha strike at level 7 you should totally be able to gank another lane with a high rate of success, or finish your yet unsuspecting lane opponent.
Regeneration is far more valuable than move speed in the laning phase. Boots are a bad choice on any hero and Yi is probably the hero who LEAST needs boots due to his immense base move speed and his move speed bonus from his ultimate. Combined with various summoner spells and Alpha Strike he really has no problem getting around.

Your reasoning behind taking boots first is just flawed, sorry.

EDIT: Simply buying regeneration over boots means you can forgo a terrible skill build like Meditation in laning phase. Oh and by the way, health potions are cheaper and heal more than consuming a mana potion then meditating that mana into health unless you have the worst Yi skill build in existence.

That reason enough why boots are the most retarded starting item in the entire game?


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IS1e7d710a0763eb

Senior Member

08-30-2009

To OP: Meditation has it's uses. Other then earlygame laning... in fights, you can stop and meditate while getting pummeled. The heal + armor is big enough to keep you 'tanking' while Alpha strike cools down etc.. it makes ihm Alot more tough.
That he can be stunned while meditating is imo not really relevant, because he can get stunned and pwned while not using meditate as well. What meditate can do is to force a stun instead of letting them stun your allies.

I've seen him win quite a few 2v2 battles because he just meditates (to the enemies surprise) when getting low on health and the partner + him just finish them off after meditate is done.

-Terry


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Kendrael

Junior Member

08-30-2009

Hedgehog, apparently you didn't manage to cross the important line from claiming to reasoning. Just standing there and stating that regeneration is more valuable than movementspeed doesn't do the trick, unless you add something which backs your theory up. Furthermore it's not really understandable why there should be something as "enough" movementspeed, it's clearly a the-more-the-better stat.
Let's get to your second "argument", that healthpots are more efficient than manapots plus meditation. I'll just tell you that this is only true for the first level of the meditation skill, after that it's simply wrong. If you don't trust me on that feel free to check the numbers yourself (which you could've done before claiming it). On top of that there's the additional value of armor/magic resistance kindly mentioned by Terry already. The amount of kills I got by baiting people into a towerdive to finish me, turning on meditation and watch them get blasted to pieces exceeds the one-digit-area.
I'm still waiting for a good argument why alpha strike helps you during your laning phase, it doesn't give you any extra money and its harassment capabilities are next to useless, because you'll always get the amount of damage you caused right back into your face when trying to run away from your alpha strike target again.
So my short answer to your concluding question would be a simple "no", the long one "nooooooooooo".