Why Solo Mid?

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Nylian

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Senior Member

05-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by BystanderFrenzy View Post
Because the distance between turrets is so small, there is less space to maneuver more than one champion around, and individual champs are able to escape far more easily because of this short distance. Minions waves also arrive, as well as get into turret range, faster. This generally means that players in the middle will get gold and experience quicker than side lanes, and more so if there is just one champ there instead of two.
This is an excellent point, I did not think of these two reasons. That's probably it then, and it makes perfect sense too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etherimp View Post
Mid has the shortest path/route between and is safer from ganks than Top or bottom. Carries who get fed the fastest are more effective earlier and can get more kills going into the ganking phase, and thus they snowball into beasts lategame. Essentially, mid lane is the safest environment to place a squishy who needs to be fed.

Solo tops usually stay very close to their own Turret so they can avoid getting ganked from the jungler, or otherwise double-teamed if they attempt to over extend.

Bottom has dragon, so it's better to have a strong bottom (2 champs who can bully the lane) so they can keep an eye on dragon.
I agree with you about dragon, I mentioned that above.

I disagree with you about mid being safer from ganks. Your potential to get ganked is from both sides, and it's MUCH easier for 1 enemy to allow you to push by only last hitting, while TWO enemies last hitting will always push more than 1 person last hitting. Your comment about someone snowballing has nothing to do with what I mentioned.


@Bootbabe
I played HoN long enough to know that I liked LoL more, LoL was my first MMOB


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dovvntempo

Senior Member

05-11-2011

how will 2 people last hitting push more than 1 person? If 7 attacks are needed to last hit every minion in the wave, then champ A can have 3, champ B can have 4. The number of attacks / how fast the wave goes down does not change ( if done right ).


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Nylian

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Senior Member

05-11-2011

Yes, I admit that, theoretically, if both players in the lane are playing perfectly and they are all last hitting then it is as you say. A good point, if they're perfect and only 7 attacks are made.

I unfortunately am still not good enough to perfectly last hit every wave, and neither are my teammates, nor my enemies.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

05-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nylian View Post
This is an excellent point, I did not think of these two reasons. That's probably it then, and it makes perfect sense too.



I agree with you about dragon, I mentioned that above.

I disagree with you about mid being safer from ganks. Your potential to get ganked is from both sides, and it's MUCH easier for 1 enemy to allow you to push by only last hitting, while TWO enemies last hitting will always push more than 1 person last hitting. Your comment about someone snowballing has nothing to do with what I mentioned.


@Bootbabe
I played HoN long enough to know that I liked LoL more, LoL was my first MMOB
Wards on both sides prevent ganks, as well as your team properly calling SS.. the only person you should have to worry about (At all) is their jungler, which presumably would be coming from their side of jungle... hence wards.

It's easier to sit nearer to the tower and get last hits, and if a ganker does appear you quickly fall back to tower to prevent the gank.. Ganking mid is more difficult than ganking an equally extended side lane...

As far as snowballing goes: Mid lane usually ends up a few levels higher and with significantly more gold than side lanes. This means they are more fed, and since they are playing mid lane and they are (presumably) carries, they can easily gank top or bottom lane if either over-extends. This is the "snowball" effect I was referring to, and this is why you put squishy carries soloing mid in the first place. I was answering your question.


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Jonbro

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Senior Member

05-11-2011

As far as ganking mid goes, I think it's also pertinent to note that the bushes are farther away from the minion waves and laners in mid compared to the side lanes.


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Mattrellen

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05-11-2011

Some of the logic here is off.

First, it doesn't matter how long the lane is, exp and gold comes at the same rate. Minions spawn at the same time for all 3 lanes, and, as such, the rate of any gain from minions is equal.

Second, mid lane ends up with more levels and gold because they are alone. A solo top or bot would see the same effect. If you sent a solo top, it would be equal to a solo mid for gold and exp.

The travel time isn't a very big deal, nor is the exposure to ganks, between wards and calls.

I would imagine solo top would compare quite favorably to solo mid for a few reasons.

First, mid can gank well. With 2 people as potential gankers, it makes the ganks on top o bot twice as strong or gives you someone to hold mid 2 on 1 as needed.

Second, it gives strong dragon control. Top cannot help the dragon unless teleporting to a ward. Mid can help dragon, and 4 is better than 3.

Finally, many good mid champs now can benefit from the top map layout. Cait can use the bushes to charge her passive quickly. Ez and Morgana have skill shots that benefit from the bend. Annie and Malz can benefit a lot from laying in wait for an ambush. Teemo and Karth can counter champs hiding in the bushes well, without needing wards, even.

I believe solo top would probably be better for these reasons, though there are certainly some issues (but there are with solo mid too, aren't there?) but it would take a planned group to challenge the norm and do well. If that were to happen, people would flock to solo top but many people will just thin what is popular must be the best, without thinking about real reasons why...


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yokusho

Junior Member

05-11-2011

One of the problems I see with solo top and bottom lanes is that they can get zoned out easier than mid. I really do want to try out a plan with 2 mid and two solo with one jungle. It may work against inexperienced people, but then again I do fear top and bottom getting zoned.

When a lane gets zoned out and its a solo there is basically nothing they can do to fix it. Even if the lane gets ganked usually the side doing the zoning can easily get away since they aren't really pushing out.

Another problem is that if top and bot wanted to push against a solo lane they only have to buy one ward to see the gank coming. One ward per 2 people is extremely effective to stop ganks. Im thinking you would need op ghost to jungle to pull off ganks on that. =D


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Nylian

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Senior Member

05-11-2011

@Etherimp
Mid has more levels and xp because they're solo, not because they're mid. So again, snowballing comment is null unless there's some other point you're failing to convey. The other points you brought up I mentioned in my original post. I even mentioned wards, and in a sideline you would have to purchase half as many... and I don't see how it's harder to gank besides you just saying so. I think understand what you're trying to say, as this is the accepted mentality that you, and me, and everyone appears to be stuck in, but I'm trying to find a reason to break free from that thinking, if it's necessary, and your supporting arguments so far suck terribly. Give us good reasons why things are the way you say there are, and I'll back you up 100%.

@Jonbro
Good point, however you know nothing is on the other side of the bushes top and bottom, just a wall. Someone could teleport to a ward sure, but that could happen in plain sight mid if they really wanted to.

@Mattrellen
Well said, and your points make a lot of sense, even brought up a few things I hadn't thought of. I'll compile a list of advantages and disadvantages and post it.

@yokusho
Good points too, only 1 ward for cover from a gank from two people is indeed easy to cover... however that's what people currently do now, so there would be no difference. As far as zoning, that is 100% true and I didn't consider that either... It would be much easier for 2 people to zone 1, but that's also because the enemy team is following the "accepted method" of solomid. If the accepted method was 1 solo top, 2 mid, then zoning wouldn't make a difference from mid, the dynamic may be different because the bushes are closer, but that would be it.

In regards to the Jungler, as the carry in mid the Jungler has easier access to your lane, as he can approach it from both sides and multiple angles, Top he only has 1 really viable spot (unless he's going to dive of course) which is easily covered by only 1 ward.

I am not trying to defend my point or yours or whatever. Trying to figure out if what we're doing as a whole is the right course of action. If your argument doesn't make any sense I'm going to say so, sorry if it rubs you wrong.


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Monkeedude

Senior Member

05-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrellen View Post
Some of the logic here is off.

First, it doesn't matter how long the lane is, exp and gold comes at the same rate. Minions spawn at the same time for all 3 lanes, and, as such, the rate of any gain from minions is equal.
This is true, except that it is theoretically easier to get last hits in Mid lane because of its greater maneuverability and the way the bushes work out, you'll always know where your opponent is. In side lanes, you can be up with your minions trying to last hit to get gold while the opponent goes in the bushes waiting for a good chance to strike. Wards will prevent this but aren't typically available early game.

Second, mid lane ends up with more levels and gold because they are alone. A solo top or bot would see the same effect. If you sent a solo top, it would be equal to a solo mid for gold and exp.

This is true, assuming you farm equally.

The travel time isn't a very big deal, nor is the exposure to ganks, between wards and calls.

Yes it is. Mid has escape routes in literally every direction. But the distance between the minion fights and your turrets is what counts. Sometimes in side lanes you'll know a gank is coming but you're a bit too late. That will almost never happen in Mid, because the time it takes to fall back is that much shorter.

I would imagine solo top would compare quite favorably to solo mid for a few reasons.

And many teams do solo top. Often 1 person is jungling, 1 person solos top, and 1 person solos mid. 2 on bottom to defend dragon early game.


First, mid can gank well. With 2 people as potential gankers, it makes the ganks on top o bot twice as strong or gives you someone to hold mid 2 on 1 as needed.

See above. Assuming your guy can 1v2, which some characters can quite well (like Swain) - this is a superior strategy and almost always wins you the game.

Second, it gives strong dragon control. Top cannot help the dragon unless teleporting to a ward. Mid can help dragon, and 4 is better than 3.

I think jungling is better than trip laning, but thats just me.

Finally, many good mid champs now can benefit from the top map layout. Cait can use the bushes to charge her passive quickly. Ez and Morgana have skill shots that benefit from the bend. Annie and Malz can benefit a lot from laying in wait for an ambush. Teemo and Karth can counter champs hiding in the bushes well, without needing wards, even.

The problem is that those champs don't always have good escapes, and the top escape route is basically just BACK. Morgana in the bushes will usually basically be killed by a Melee DPS with Cleanse.

While its doable to solo top, it's a very defensive style of play where you only try and get creep score, almost no harass

I believe solo top would probably be better for these reasons, though there are certainly some issues (but there are with solo mid too, aren't there?) but it would take a planned group to challenge the norm and do well. If that were to happen, people would flock to solo top but many people will just thin what is popular must be the best, without thinking about real reasons why...
You'll find the 1top-1mid-1jungle-2bottom very popular in higher levels of play.
1char


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Over 9000 DPS

Senior Member

05-11-2011

Mid has shortest distance to your turret to escape, and more warning from ganks due to bushes being placed further. Plus it lets your soon-to-be-farmed carry gank both other lanes.