Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Why Void Staff Sucks 98.8% of the time

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

M4nTiCoR3

Senior Member

12-11-2010

Thought i would go ahead and make a graph from my spreadsheet to make it clearer what I was talking about earlier. From the graph below, you can see how generally speaking, when comparing reasonable amounts of flat pen vs. % pen, you get much more bang for your buck from % pen. This becomes even more clear when you consider that it generally takes multiple flat pen items to outperform the gains a single % pen item (VS/LW) will yeild in most cases, making the cost/gain for flat pen very limited late game. Early game is where flat pen shines, but damage values are generally lowest then, and the % gains, while they may seem high at first, will yeild much less impressive numbers than you might think.

Some things to consider...

1. Late game almost all champs have a minimum AR vlaue of ~80, and a minimum MR ~30-60

2. Early game (lvls 1-8) most champions deal 50-200 Damage per attack, late game (lvls 16-18) many champions deal 500-1k damage per attack...and some carries burst for even more.

3. Tanky champs can have easily have AR/MR values that both exceed 100-300 apeice late game.

4. The graph shows the net gain in damage recieved to the enemy after AR/MR reduction.

-Example: Looking at the highlighted column. A champion who has 100 Resistance would recieve 50% of the total damage you actual dealt to their health with no penetration. To calaculate your champoins actual damage with penetration using my graph, you would simply add the listed % net gain on the line to your nomal non-pen damage statistic of 50% found at the bottom of the graph. Then mulitply that % by your total damage for your attack to get what the enmy actual recives to their health.

5. This graph does not account for combinations of % pen and flat pen together. You cannot simply add the scores from each individual statistic to get their true combined value. It is rather complicated because the order in which they are calculated does indeed matter, but I do have the statistcs for this as well. It simply makes the graph too cluttered to add them in however, and i feel you get the idea from what is listed.

6. This graph assumes that all the flat pen being used does not allow for negative AR/MR. There are some forms of pen that do allow such a possibility, but for simplicity sake I used only the capped values. This is what accounts for the odd curve to the -60 flat pen, as the seeminlgy odd rise and fall is accounted for by the 100% cap.

In Conclusion: Using items with % pen is not a worhtless pursuit if the conditions are right. The OP is wrong on many levels, and even with strong AP scaling, the conditions normally presented near the endgame would suggest that % pen outperfoms both flat pen and AP stacking for many champions as far as pure gains to damage output go. Other skills that do not benift form Magic pen such as heals and buffs should also be considered if they have strong AP rations, as marginally better damage but no gain to those skills may not be worth the gains AP can bring to all your skills, inclduing your damage output.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Evolnemesis

Senior Member

12-11-2010

In general, It's quite good mid-late game if the enemy team's strong threats start stacking about 100 MR... If they aren't, it's usually not worth it.

However, I do find myself liking it in some games where I need merc treads more than sorc boots for the following reason:

If you have no other penetration, Void Staff actually performs decently for its cost, even against squishy champs with very little MR. If it is the only penetration item, it penetrates 20 of a squishy 50 MR, (a little less if you have mpen marks but not that much), making it actually very close to sorc boots vs typical squishies and of course a lot better vs tanks or anyone hogging MR. You pay 750 for the penetration on sorc boots, and 720 for the penetration on void... considering how much more damage void is doing to people with any MR items at all, it's not that bad at all.

If you do have flat magic penetration items on you however, even just sorc boots, the math will show that Abyssal Scepter or Haunting Guise will usually benefit your damage more efficiently (unless your goal is to try and kill the tanks first...)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ebonclaw

Senior Member

12-11-2010

Why is someone bumping this bad thread? Kill it with fire.

-1


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ebonclaw

Senior Member

12-11-2010

Also, that's a great chart, but doesn't even tell the whole story.

First, most people shooting for 49% Pen will also have 8.5 Flat Pen, to help with the early game. Second, if you're not filling your book with inefficient Flat Pen Seals/Glyphs, then you have a bunch of extra AP generally, which decently increases damage further, skewing the actual damage expectancy.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Shadowmere

Senior Member

12-11-2010

We have to admit he's not entirely true, but he has a point. Void staff does cost a whole lot more than Last whisper.
The major problem is, imo, that there are very few ways to get spell penetration. There are barely 4 items that give it: sorc shoes, the thing I never remember the name (200 hp, 20 ap and 20 spell pen), abyssal scepter (reduction and not penetration, but 99,9% of the time it's the same) and void staff (% instead of falt). Overall, getting magic penetration marks and 2-3 items of penetration, you'll be able to deal max magical damage to targets with around 50 mres. If you go that way, you'll own every squishy but will fail against anyone with over 100 mres. Going flat spell pen also forbids you of buying void staff, as it'll be about half as good. If you only take void staff, you'll pay a lot of money for little reduction against squishies and good reductiona against tankers, but even if you reduce their mres from 200 to 120, you're still very far from killing them.

but well, this isn't only the problem of void staff: ad scales 5 times as good as ap late game, that's all. If you get 3-4 items for pure mres, you'll soon be almost immune to magic damage late game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fluffy1

Senior Member

12-11-2010

Quote:
AutoSponge:
MR and Armor cost about the same in game (15.5 per point) but characters have (on average) double the natural armor of their MR (77 vs 36).

Void staff costs 2295 (minus the value of its AP 1075, and mana 500) really costs 720. The physical equivalent, Last Whisper, costs 1965 (minus 1050 for the AS buff and 830 for the AD) really costs 85.

Last Whisper's 40% reduction is more valuable because armor figures are higher and therefore the reduction is greater. Void staff, on the other hand, sucks. It (really costs) over 8 times that of the Last Whisper. Furthermore, anyone suggesting getting it on top of Abyssal Scepter is really wasting money and needs their head checked since it basically turns it into 32% (100 MR) reduction against stacked heroes or 18% against noobs (36).

If the enemy stacks MR like it's their job or you have no other reduction/penetration (and you have a spamable ability) get it. Otherwise, forget it's in the menu.


you clearly have no idea why you would buy void stave in the first place, void stave is a COUNTER ITEM to deal with people stacking resist, you dont buy it unless the terget you wanna prioritze is getting more then 100 resist, you also forgot than the 15% pen from the mastery stack with void so it penetrates 49% halving someones MR. its incrediably effective at what it does....that is untill the tank keeps stacking it to 200-250 in which case they are still halving your damage. the pen system does need a reword to deal with resistance stackng.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Evolnemesis

Senior Member

12-11-2010

Quote:
Shadowmere:
We have to admit he's not entirely true, but he has a point. Void staff does cost a whole lot more than Last whisper.
The major problem is, imo, that there are very few ways to get spell penetration. There are barely 4 items that give it: sorc shoes, the thing I never remember the name (200 hp, 20 ap and 20 spell pen), abyssal scepter (reduction and not penetration, but 99,9% of the time it's the same) and void staff (% instead of falt). Overall, getting magic penetration marks and 2-3 items of penetration, you'll be able to deal max magical damage to targets with around 50 mres. If you go that way, you'll own every squishy but will fail against anyone with over 100 mres. Going flat spell pen also forbids you of buying void staff, as it'll be about half as good. If you only take void staff, you'll pay a lot of money for little reduction against squishies and good reductiona against tankers, but even if you reduce their mres from 200 to 120, you're still very far from killing them.

but well, this isn't only the problem of void staff: ad scales 5 times as good as ap late game, that's all. If you get 3-4 items for pure mres, you'll soon be almost immune to magic damage late game.


I agree with a lot of what you said here... and it's Haunting Guise you can't remember (actually not a bad early item, relatively cheap with a good mix of ap, health, and mpen.. I usually get it if I don't get sorc boots, which usually means im under pressure in lane by a strong mage or cc and had to get merc treads instead to help me, so the health doesn't hurt here either)

Mpen IS an expensive stat... I understand it's probably because natural MR on most champs is quite a bit lower than their armor, especially at higher levels later in the game, but still I think it's probably overcosted...

No matter what you do, you pay 700+ gold for either 20 flat or 40% mpen.

Compare this with less than 100 gold on many dps items for 20 flat armor pen or 40% armor pen, and the fact that armor pen runes provide nearly double the benefit... and as you pointed out, AD just scales better in general late game because they don't depend on cooldowns nearly as much as AP nukers do.

edit: Also... Mpen affects a LOT more AOE abilities which are hitting multiple champs at the same time, pretty much all of them, so on second look, its high cost compared to armor penetration makes more sense.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Evolnemesis

Senior Member

12-11-2010

Quote:
Fluffy1:
you clearly have no idea why you would buy void stave in the first place, void stave is a COUNTER ITEM to deal with people stacking resist, you dont buy it unless the terget you wanna prioritze is getting more then 100 resist, you also forgot than the 15% pen from the mastery stack with void so it penetrates 49% halving someones MR. its incrediably effective at what it does....that is untill the tank keeps stacking it to 200-250 in which case they are still halving your damage. the pen system does need a reword to deal with resistance stackng.


Not necessarily on the counter item... Generally it is true, you normally ARE getting it late game to stop people you need to kill that you see stacking resist, but as I said previously, if you get it ON ITS OWN, let's say you have no gold or room for any other penetration items, or couldn't get them for some reason (needing other boots for example) it really is just as good as anything else, and performs quite well for its cost EVEN AGAINST LOW MR when you don't have other mpen items. But I do agree it is a situational item that you usually should only be getting under special circumstances...

As for reworking the pen system, I'm not sure we need to do anything that drastic, I just think it just has to do with the fact that mpen on items is more expensive than MR.. so, anyone stacking MR will always win the race vs mages.

Just getting a negatron cloak early, a mere 740 investment, gives you a large survivability advantage that most mages can't overcome until after they have spent THOUSANDS more on their build, by which time you are also doing a lot more damage, and can just finish that cloak into a banshee's veil or whatever. Lowering the cost for Mpen on items substantially, maybe adding another item with mpen and desirable stats, should be enough to fix the problem.

To contrast, if you look at item costs, armor pen is quite a bit cheaper and easier to get than armor... because of this, AD champs can usually still keep up with and kill people trying to stack armor (at least until they get a thornmail anyway... gotta love taunting a fed Yi with Rammus wearing Thornmail and in Defensive Ball Curl with 300-400 armor or so, he's doing more damage to himself than me even if he has lifesteal... he dies so fast ).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fluffy1

Senior Member

12-11-2010

perhaps it would be easier to increase the cost of MR since it counters 3 of the 4 anti tank items ie: void staff, deathfire(no idea why this item has magic damage) and mandreds bloodrazor.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

USnip

Member

12-11-2010

Quote:
Fluffy1:
perhaps it would be easier to increase the cost of MR since it counters 3 of the 4 anti tank items ie: void staff, deathfire(no idea why this item has magic damage) and mandreds bloodrazor.


I've actually come to the conclusion deathfire is not even intended as an anti-tank item. It's an anti-squishy nuke for assassins. Kinda bad design to make it look like it counters fatties and then have it not really do so...

On a side note, the passive on Last Whisper is currently priced at 545 gold and void staff is priced at 895. Last whisper is also significantly better as a late game role player simply because it has two multipliers on one item (attack speed and armor pen) whereas void staff has a flat bonus and a multiplier (ap and magic pen). So while void staff has stats implying an early pickup you're paying disproportionately for the multiplier, which makes it questionable to grab it fast.