Why Void Staff Sucks 98.8% of the time

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FckMan

Recruiter

12-11-2010

also for future reference, 15% masteries and void staff max out at 49%, correct me if im wrong but thats what ive seen..


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Afraa

Senior Member

12-11-2010

just as a side note to this argument that many people don't often think about some champs spells outrange abyssal septer making void staff a much better choice

ie karthus ult gangplanks ult many of the mini aoe spells if you go to far away like morgana malzahar nasus etc

so you can't always say someone is just being selfish in buying voidstaff especialy on mostlikely fragile caster who might very well not even be close enough for the absyall scepter debuff to apply

there are however certain characters that should always get abysall instead of voidstaff kennen comes to mind as top of the list for that because he will be in the middle of the fight to lightning rush and ult anyways


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A Thumb Tack

Senior Member

12-11-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoSponge View Post
MR and Armor cost about the same in game (15.5 per point) but characters have (on average) double the natural armor of their MR (77 vs 36).

Void staff costs 2295 (minus the value of its AP 1075, and mana 500) really costs 720. The physical equivalent, Last Whisper, costs 1965 (minus 1050 for the AS buff and 830 for the AD) really costs 85.

Last Whisper's 40% reduction is more valuable because armor figures are higher and therefore the reduction is greater. Void staff, on the other hand, sucks. It (really costs) over 8 times that of the Last Whisper. Furthermore, anyone suggesting getting it on top of Abyssal Scepter is really wasting money and needs their head checked since it basically turns it into 32% (100 MR) reduction against stacked heroes or 18% against noobs (36).

If the enemy stacks MR like it's their job or you have no other reduction/penetration (and you have a spamable ability) get it. Otherwise, forget it's in the menu.
"I will do math for you since you still don't understand."

Haha I love hypocrites, you made my day dude.

First of all your own values are wrong.

"Void staff costs 2295 (minus the value of its AP 1075 and mana 500)"

Void staff doesn't have mana on it.

"Last Whisper, costs 1965 (minus 1050 for the AS buff and 830 for the AD)"

Last whisper has 10 AD on it, 10 AD isn't 830gold.

So already there you failed before even doing the math.

Seriously what game do you play? HoN?

Btw you pick up a void staff if you didn't get sorc boots (worthless on almost everyone) and they stacked 120-140+ MR.

Otherwise merc boots + abyss scepter is still the best way to go.


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M4nTiCoR3

Senior Member

12-11-2010

It baffles me how people complain about how the search feature is disabled, and yet when someone necors an already established thread on the topic they are intrested in discussing, they get **** for it. I understand with the plethora of patches that some discussion gets invalidated, but I think id rather have the same necro thread pop up every few mothns than have a new discusion start all over again...maybe its just me.

Back to the point i wanted to add. After running the numbers in a variety of ways, I have come to a pretty useful conclusion on % based pen. Because of the way it works, it provides fairly consistent returns as far as net damaged gained at all reasonable levels of Resistance. For example...

15% pen = an increase of ~4% actual damge recieved

40% pen = an increase of ~12% actual damage recieved

49% pen = an increase of ~15% actual damage recived

These numbers become more significant the higehr your damage output is since they are based on a percentage. The trick is to understand that adding straight AP will almost always be inferior late game because most AP rations are less than 100%, and even after that you must calculate any reduction the enemy has, which late game is usually ~60-100 resiatence or more. For example...

Lets say I can deal 300 damage with a magic attack to a single target.

With 49% pen...i would deal around an extra 45 more damage to this target reguardless of how much MR they have.

To get that same benifit stacking pure AP...even with a AP ratio of 1.0...I would need between 60-135 AP to break even (depending on MR of enemy)...with an average of about 100 AP at most reasonable levels of MR. This gets mouch much worse if your AP ratio is lower...say like 0.5 instead...essentially doubling the listed AP above needed to break even.

By my calculations...champions with strong scaling damage and poor AP ratios will benifit much more greatly from % pen to thier overall damage output over almost any other stat.

Champions who have strong AP rations are much more situational, and need to assess if the enemy is stacking MR before investing in % pen items, as this is when it becomes most cost effective over pur AP.

Champions who have skills that benift only from AP, such as heals and other buffs with decent AP ratios, should strongly conisder AP over pen for the utility it provides to all yoru skills.

Flat penetration modifiers work very differently than % pen as far as returns on actual damage recieved. They have large returns of as much a s 20% if the enemy has very low resistance (30), but falls quickly as the enemies resistance grows (100+).

For example, with the same scenario as above, our champion with 30 flat penetration instead of 49% pen will have stronger returns on his attacks against champions below 60 MR...but lower returns on champs who have more. Since late game almost all champs have 60 or moreAR/MR...flat pen tends to lose its effectiveness over time. This is not true of % penetration.

Hope that helps, I will post the math if anyone is really intrested in seeing it.

Stay Rock Solid,

-gap81


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brainlizard

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Senior Member

12-11-2010

Anivia's FlashFrost vs. enemy with 80 MR

Doran's Ring + Zhonya's Ring and MPen Reds (168.75 AP, 15% Pen, 8.55 Pen)
350 + 168.75 = 518.75 DMG pre reduction
80 MR * .85 - 8.55 = 59.45 MR
518.75 * (100 / (100 + 59.45)) = 325 damage

Doran's Ring + Void Staff and MPen Reds (85 AP, 49% Pen, 8.55 Pen)
350 + 85 = 435 DMG pre reduction
80 MR * .51 - 8.55 = 32.25
435 * (100 / (100 + 32.25)) = 329 damage

Even as your very first item, against relatively moderate MR, Void Staff > Zhonya's. (Abyssal is worse than both, even vs. lower MR like 65).


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Pyronymer

Senior Member

12-11-2010

Well if someone is necroing this thread I want to quote from that sticky long ago mentioned.

Quote:
Q: What order is armor penetration/MR penetration applied in?

A: From top to bottom

Armor/MR Reduction
Flat/Linear Armor/MR Penetration
% Based Armor/MR Penetration
Notice that is completely different to the earlier quote and puts % based penetration in a position where it IS devalued except against very high resistance targets when you DON'T have other sources of flat penetration or reduction.


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Klaste

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Recruiter

12-11-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyronymer View Post
Well if someone is necroing this thread I want to quote from that sticky long ago mentioned.



Notice that is completely different to the earlier quote and puts % based penetration in a position where it IS devalued except against very high resistance targets when you DON'T have other sources of flat penetration or reduction.
That's indeed the current application order of magic pen. %based applies last, after a certain patch. This means it's generally better to stack flat MPen *or* a void staff. Obviously the same applies to armor and Last Whisper.


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Phi Trigger

Senior Member

12-11-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoSponge View Post
MR and Armor cost about the same in game (15.5 per point) but characters have (on average) double the natural armor of their MR (77 vs 36).

Void staff costs 2295 (minus the value of its AP 1075, and mana 500) really costs 720. The physical equivalent, Last Whisper, costs 1965 (minus 1050 for the AS buff and 830 for the AD) really costs 85.

Last Whisper's 40% reduction is more valuable because armor figures are higher and therefore the reduction is greater. Void staff, on the other hand, sucks. It (really costs) over 8 times that of the Last Whisper. Furthermore, anyone suggesting getting it on top of Abyssal Scepter is really wasting money and needs their head checked since it basically turns it into 32% (100 MR) reduction against stacked heroes or 18% against noobs (36).

If the enemy stacks MR like it's their job or you have no other reduction/penetration (and you have a spamable ability) get it. Otherwise, forget it's in the menu.
First, void staff doesn't give any mana.

Second, if you are calculating 70 ap at 1075 you have one whacked out base level. If we used blasting rods as a price point, 40 ap = 860 so 70 ap = 860 * 7/4 = 860 + 645 = 1505. So from that base line, the 40% penetration is costing you 790.


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Bravesurf

Senior Member

12-11-2010

another question is, do Void Staff get taken into consideration before/or after flat magpen from Hunting Guise, Sorc Shoes and Abyssal Scepter? I mean,
100magres - 40% magpen - 60 flat magpen = 0 magres left... while
100magres - 60 flat magpen - 40% magpen = 16 magres left.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

12-11-2010

Looks like after. That's just an annoying nerf.