[question] Udyr mechanics and which not to max?

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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

03-09-2010

I havnt tried udyr and missed my chance when he was free, looking to understand him so im ready to try him out for the first time without having to be such a noob. i've seen some guides and I have a question about his abilities

I noticed that all 4 of his abilities are available at level 1 from my understanding, seeing how people were using phenoix stance at level one and many guides suggest getting it as the first ability

since its his r skill which usually the ulti spell and those usually only have 3 ranks, does this mean that udyr must decide which skills will miss out on either 1 or 2 points in it?

so another question I have is what skills should I be maxing out and for which situations

after reviewing all the abilities my opinion is either bear or turtle, or just have both at lvl4

my reasonings are for bear is that though having high move speed helps close the gap and the more frequent stunning from it, I dont think it's nessary. the move speed can be obtained through items and as you get higher move speed, you get diminished returns which would make the benifit from this ability less and less. as for the stun, im gonna be constantly switching stance such that I doubt i'd beable to time myself such that I get back to bear every 5 seconds to get the benfit of the reduced cooldown

for turtle, I find that i'd use it when im farming and I wont need such a high amount of leech when farming, also the shield I would only need high enough to withstand a nuke. basicly the higher the shield the better, but then if at rank 3 or 4 is enough to withstand most attacks then I wouldnt need to improve it, especially if I can replace the shield again over and over again. though this would seem like a better choice to max out over bear, but it seems 4 in bear and 4 in turtle would be a good choice as well.

as for tiger, I gotta say I really dislike the idea of the attacks being split into 3 and only allowing the first strike to proc on strike attacks, it just seems that this will just reduce the items effectivness. but the only reason I believe this must be maxed is just for the active ability, since it is a multiplier which means that it'll scale very well with items and do massive amounts of damage.

for phenoix, seems like everyone loves it, the active is an aoe that does decent damage and the passive does well making it the best stance to stay in against another hero.

also are you able to return back into your stance if you are in that stance already, say your in tiger stance already, and you want to use tiger's active ability again, can you activate tiger stance again to do another burst damage or do you have to go into another stance and then back into tiger?


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Zombie Irwin

Senior Member

03-09-2010

You can spam stances on him, and if you have some CDR it will keep monkeys agility up. I usually don't max tiger, since I find I only really use that as a last hit on a champion late game when I've stacked damage, or on towers.

Phoenix really shines when you have high attack speed. I run a full attack speed rune page for about 38% AS and usually rush zerkers greaves and malady. Getting turtle first with a vamp scepter and a ton of attack speed runes means you heal VERY quickly in the early laning phase.

I always go turtle then bear first, and from there its all about adjusting to the situation. Usually I pick up another turtle to play it safe, then I get a few phoenix skills after that for farming/killing/etc. Make sure you keep count of your phoenix procs. Smart opponents will also count them and move back when they see you positioning for an aoe hit on them.

I made a guide here if you wanna check it out: https://www.leagueoflegends.com/boar...ad.php?t=64225


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ZO KidKaiser

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Senior Member

03-09-2010

here is my udyr skill build
lvl1-turtle or bear stance (turtle to farm with or bear stance for FB)
lvl2-i now grab turtle of bear. depending on which i didnt grab at lvl1

then from there on out to lvl10 i just alternate between turtle stance and bear stance prioritizing turtle first.

then from lvl11-13 i go into the tiger stance.

then from 14-18 i max out phoenix stance

so in the end udyr has:
lvl3 tiger
lvl5 turtle/bear/phoenix

as far as i'm concerned. Udyr's Turtle shield shouldn't be under-estimated. it protects Udyr from ALL DAMAGES DONE TO HIM. which also includes the damage from the summoner spell Ignite. and the reason why i lvl'd up phoenix last is simply because i farm with Turtle stance. if you prioritize phoenix to be max'd ASAP then it's okay too i guess. i just like to pop out my shield and tank some damage while i farm.

Oh and to answer your very last question about re-using a stance. you can keep using the tiger stance spell even when you are still in the tiger stance.


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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

03-09-2010

I have a new question, how long does tiger stance's active last? it says on next hit but doesnt say how long, and do you have to be in tiger stance for it's active to work?

my thought is that if I was chasing someone, or about to come out of the bushes, i'd hit tiger stance, get the next attack buff, then go into bear stance and run them down, this way I chase them down as fast as I can and hit them with a stun and a large attack damage, and then probably back into tiger stance for another hit, and if they are attacking me go into turtle for the shield, then into phenoix until cooldown for either tiger or bear (bear if I can stun, tiger for added damage)


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Dargar

Junior Member

03-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkenDragon View Post
I have a new question, how long does tiger stance's active last? it says on next hit but doesnt say how long, and do you have to be in tiger stance for it's active to work?

my thought is that if I was chasing someone, or about to come out of the bushes, i'd hit tiger stance, get the next attack buff, then go into bear stance and run them down, this way I chase them down as fast as I can and hit them with a stun and a large attack damage, and then probably back into tiger stance for another hit, and if they are attacking me go into turtle for the shield, then into phenoix until cooldown for either tiger or bear (bear if I can stun, tiger for added damage)
It lasts until your next hit. I don't know when it comes off, but it's never been an issue. What I do is tiger, then if they run bear, if not phoenix. On activation phoenix gives him a boost to attack, so Tiger does even more damage (I may be mistaken on this count). But yes, as it stands you can change out of tiger stance and still have the tiger hit.


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Paradox Equation

Junior Member

03-09-2010

I'm no master. I am at level 30 though, and I do play a lot of udyr. My clan can never kill me during our clan practices whenever I play him >=)

I tend to play Udyr for his versatility, but I think he is best when you focus on his offensive capability, however you want to do that.

This is sort of a general guide of things I've learned about udyr. I'm not being completely specific because I want to preserve most of my seekrits >=D

SKILLS

FIRST PICK
: is almost always bear stance unless I am forced to solo a lane. Then I go turtle instead.

SECOND PICK: If you aren't solo you should go turtle. That lifesteal is great, especially if you get either Doran's Blade (great choice!) or Vamp scepter first. Not to mention that shield will save you from damage and frustrate your opponents. Sometimes the foe will automatically flee if you pop turtle and run towards him, because they overestimate the strength of your shield and think they shouldn't bother attacking. If you did go solo, you should already have turtle, so go bear instead.

NOTE: There are some circumstances where you may want to go TIGER for your second pick. If you level up and are fighting an aggressive pair in your lane, and if can tell you are going to get one of them low HP, the extra atk speed and bonus damage from tiger can nab you an early kill! It certainly has for me plenty of times. I like to reserve allocating that second skill point until I know what I'm really gonna need it for.

PHOENIX: This is Udyr's main source of damage! You want to get this stance to level 3 at least before you raise Tiger at all, if not level 4. It procs every 3rd hit, and by level 4+ you are doing a LOT of damage with that proc, especially if you still have the AP bonus from activating the stance. You want this to be at least 4 by the time you hit lvl 8/9/10

TIGER:
The benefit of lvl 5 tiger stance is significant, but it is best to have by the time you acquire a B.F. sword or some other damage increase. Level 2-4 are what you want by the time you get to mid game. The right build could net you an 800+ dmg tiger strike, but don't expect crazy damage from this skill until you have the right items. Thus, it is better to focus more on this late game. There is a strong case for keeping Tiger and Pheonix stance relatively equal. Tiger's splitting the 3 attacks actually results in MORE damage against an armored target, because I THINK (not sure) that ONLY the primary strike in tiger is considered physical damage. The rest is magic =)

BEAR STANCE:
Keep it at 1 until you have maxed everything else, then raise it to 3! All of udyr's active stance powers scale very well with skill level. However, all you get out of bear stance is faster and longer movement bonus. That stun stays at 1 second, no matter the level of the skill. You want to use that stun to interrupt and/or surprise enemies, that is the most useful aspect of bear. Also, popping it and flashing next to a fleeing target will give you that extra moment you need to finish them off. The benefits to your survivability and damage that come from ignoring bear stance after level 1 are highly significant! All it costs you is the loss of a negligible boost to your move speed.

ADJUST YOUR SKILLS TO SUIT YOUR SITUATION:
Remember that Udyr is versatile and do not be afraid to put another point or two into Turtle early game if you are laning against a good harasser. Since you're mostly ignoring bear, you can afford to do this if necessary. Work on those reflexes, so you can pop that Turtle shield right before skill shots impact. After all, like all of your stance changes it is instant.


UDYR FACTS:

1.
ACTIVE stance buffs (Run speed, tiger strike, ticking fire AOEDOT/Damage boost, Turtle shield) WILL remain and continue to affect Udyr even if you switch stances!
That means you can make some interesting combinations: Initiate with turtle and after 1 hit immediately switch to fire, attack a couple times and switch to tiger: your tiger strikes will be higher dmg from the pheonix buff and the turtle will protect you from their first few attacks while you're in pheonix. When they start to run, hit bear and stun them, then go tiger again. DEY BE DEAD. If they're still fighting hard after a couple seconds of tiger, switch to pheonix and hit 3 times before switching back again (Or bear when they run.)

2. COOLDOWN REDUCTION IS ALMOST NECESSARY TO PLAY UDYR WELL.
The reason for this is what I just explained above. Your stance bonuses will carry over into the next stance if you can switch quickly enough. Also you want to have the option to change your stance at any moment. This can save your ass or get you kills. My runebook is 10% cdr, and 19 armor pen. My masteries are 9/0/21, which totals another 24% CDR, 15% spell pen, plus all those tasty mana regen masteries that Udyr REALLY needs.

3. ATTACK SPEED IS ALSO VERY IMPORTANT.
By the time you get Pheonix up to 4 or 5, which should be early mid game, you will be doing 150-200 bonus damage on every third attack with this stance. This may be a significant chunk of the opponent's health and will elicit an "OH ****" reaction from weaker targets, who will then try to escape. Time for bear! RAWR. Also, bonus points if you decide to fit that Divine Blade or whatever with the 55% attack speed and another damage proc every 4 hits. It will make your phoenix form just that much scarier, and isn't so shabby for Tiger either.

4. UDYR IS A **** FOR MANA.
Udyr will suck down mana (ahem) like a small army of prostitutes. Stances cost less mana the higher level they are. This means early game you're going to have to be careful with how often you switch stances. This also makes it necessary to at some point help out your mana supply. Hmm, I wonder how we'll do that...

5. GOLEM BUFF IS YOUR FRIEND.
We've already established that Udyr is very mana starved early game, and that Cooldown Reduction is very important to making the most out of his playstyle. Well, what stopgap measure does everyone have to provide these two stats? GOLEM BUFF! Huge mana regen boost, and 25% CDR. With a suggested mastery build and no cooldown runes, this will cap your cooldown reduction at 40%. That's a big deal folks. People will whine at you when you take the golem buff, but ignore them. Udyr is confusing as a champ and they just don't know what they're talking about.

To answer the op's questions: Yes, you can switch into a stance that you are currently in to gain its active bonus again. If you just switched into that stance, switching into it again will have a longer cooldown than switching into a different stance. Depending on your CDR it is likely you will lose stance actives and your passive bonus if you try to do this. It is better to alternate two or three stances, this will allow you to cast more rapidly and stack more bonuses. You will almost never spam a single stance, that's a bit stoopid.


ITEM THEORY

Udyr spams stances and fights at melee range. Udyr also has some serious mana constraints and is a taaad bit squishy for a melee-ranged fighter. Udyr benefits greatly from Attack speed, and a wee bit of lifesteal definitely doesn't hurt. He has high burst DPS potential from +dmg items due to tiger. Udyr can make an excellent ganker, excellent farmer, and an excellent jungler all simultaneously if played well. He has problems at times against people with slows, long range, or excessive life steal/dps. Beware of tanks that stun.

So assuming we've got CDR from our masteries and/or runebooks, that still leaves us with a lot of strengths to accentuate and weaknesses to accommodate.

This is what works for me:

Lvl 1: Vamp scepter or Doran's Blade. Dorans is great for early survivability and its lifesteal augments your turtle stance very nicely. Vampiric Scepter is good if you're careful and feel like NEVER leaving the lane except to jungle or shop. With that scepter, pop turtle and you can LS back to full from low HP in a surprisingly short amount of time.

You want boots and some attack speed, so naturally go for Zerker's greaves.

You also want SHEEN. Some people might argue with this, but lets face it: +400 mana is great for Udyr, and so is an 80% atk dmg boost after every cast. As Udyr, you will be switching stances every one to three hits against a champ. This will refresh sheen and increase your average damage output more than any equivalently priced damage item.

The order in which you get sheen and the boots is up to you. The greaves are cheaper and provide a significant benefit, but the second you get that mana crystal for sheen it boosts your staying power and helps to make your stances all the more spammable. Alternating with Boots 1, Mana crystal, finish greaves, finish sheen is recommended.

At this point, you face another branching of options for your next item purchase.

RECURVE BOW: +40% attack speed for 1050 gp. This is one of the most gold efficient +atkspeed items, and the moment you acquire it your Phoenix stance becomes much stronger. This item is great for the build, and you can upsize it to Starks if you bought the Vampiric Scepter first. Otherwise you will want to use it to complete Last Whisper.

ZEAL/MALLET/FINISH TRINITY FORCE: I've seen a lot of people say "What the eff? Trinity force? U CRAZY?" However, TriForce is actually ideal for Udyr. You get additional attack speed, crit, HP, base damage, and now your damage bonus after cast goes up to 130%. That's HUGE. This item fleshes out Udyr in all the ways you neeeeeeeeed and adds kill-potential simultaneously. Some games I will finish trinity force before I buy the recurve bow, other games I do it the other way around. Just trust me and give it a try, you might find yourself pleasantly surprised.

FINISH THE BOW: This is a good point to take your recurve and make it into something else. Last Whisper, Starks, and Divine Sword are all excellent choices. Last Whisper is typically my favorite, it helps you against tanks a great deal.

BF SWORD: This will greatly boost your tiger stance alpha strike, as well as your damage bonus from Sheen/Triforce (80%/130% boost of ~140 base damage is a much bigger bonus!) If you got a vampiric scepter at start, you could upgrade it to Bloodthirster EVENTUALLY, or Infinity Edge if you didn't. I usually add the raw damage to my build last, however.

SUPPLEMENTARY ITEMS: The meat of the build is finished. You should only have 4 out of 6 item slots taken up by now. I recommend picking a survivability item to counter the enemy team best, either Banshee's Veil or Thornmail. With your final slot, more damage or attack speed is probably the way to go. Don't forger, you can and probably should sell that Doran's Blade if you started with it. I like doing that to help me finish Trinity Force faster.

OTHER ITEMS TO CONSIDER:

EXECUTIONER'S CALLING: Arguably the Crit chance on this item does not help Udyr a great deal unless you already happen to have some crit chance runes to push it over the top. Though this item was nerfed, it's still extremely useful for one thing: Killing tanks that rely on HP regen, and taking out ANY dps champ that relies on Life Steal to stay alive. This is great Anti Twitch, Anti Mundo, Anti Mordekaiser, etc. Just drag the item into your upper leftmost item slot and hit "1" on your keyboard's number line (not numpad) to "turn it on" right before the fight begins.

MALADY: Attack speed is nice. So is lifedrain! And that little snowballing damage proc on attack is pretty nifty when you count the attack speed bonus from Tiger. Yeah, only the first strike procs stuff, but that first strike is still coming around 60% faster when you're in tiger maxed. Don't forget about tiger's attack speed boost when using any damage proc (Especially lizard buff!)


So there it is, a significant chunk of my knowledge concerning Udyr and what items synergize best with his playstyle. Just don't forget, SPAM THOSE STANCES!


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Danulas

Senior Member

03-09-2010

When I play Udyr, I start with Elixer of Fortitude, 5 health pots, and I go jungling. Starting Golem and working my way across the map.

My skill build goes Phoenix, Turtle, Phoenix, Bear, Max Phoenix, Max Turtle, Max Bear.

I find that Tiger is useful for last hitting enemies when they have a shot at getting away from you. Tiger can give you that burst needed to finish them off. Otherwise, Phoenix is better for dealing damage.


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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

03-09-2010

............... wow dude you should have just posted this on a new thread and linked me to it cuz this is the type of guides we should be getting, this is just beautiful. thank you this is much needed information and very grateful for it

I do have one question, I saw a guide that uses the interventing locket which is a very intresting cuz it gives heath and mana and the much needed mana regen and since your constantly switching stances you'll also get a bit of healing and mana back and not only for yourself but for your team as well, seems like something thats almost a must have on udyr?


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EroticBadass

Senior Member

03-09-2010

hmm I have never thought of locket for udyr, the mana and health will help, but I found the health/mana gain too small. I dont even use it for soraka. To tell you the truth Udyr has mana problems only early game and that's it. With a Trinity you'll get enough mana for endgame.

I haven't tried udyr since they buffed him, but I've done a couple of practice games with him and have been successful. Some people like to max phoenix, some like tiger, but I have to say that lv5 bear and lv5 turtle are a must IMO. You can never have enough movement and the shield practically ruins burst damage.


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AFKray

Senior Member

03-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkenDragon View Post
............... wow dude you should have just posted this on a new thread and linked me to it cuz this is the type of guides we should be getting, this is just beautiful. thank you this is much needed information and very grateful for it

I do have one question, I saw a guide that uses the interventing locket which is a very intresting cuz it gives heath and mana and the much needed mana regen and since your constantly switching stances you'll also get a bit of healing and mana back and not only for yourself but for your team as well, seems like something thats almost a must have on udyr?
People are feeding you a bit of misinformation. Udyr is not a mana hog after he levels, only early on. All his skills go down to 35 mana cost at level 5. You will normally be using 3 level 5 ranked skills (Usually either Bear + Turtle and either Phoenix or Tiger). A sheen--> trinity is all the mana you are going to need late game, especially since you normally will be getting the blue buff whenever its up.


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