[Champion Suggestion] Nemhain the Alpha Prioress

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Samus93

Senior Member

10-17-2011

haha my current champ just has a few unique spells is all, the other mechanic i'm still just trying to visualize properly :P i'l make a champ for it later. And yep, recognition is all you can ask for with something like this, and really if they FORCED me to take a reward I'd probs only take some RP (seeing as i'm too stingy to buy it myself lol). anywayz keep going with that artwork and ye, if i need help i'll ask

As for Sydra, i've read through it and am just addign little notations everywhere in red (not changing anything, just making additions) and then i'll email it back to you for a look. sound good?


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Mit213

Senior Member

10-18-2011

Sorry, this is prob gonna be sloppyyyyyyyyy, but I feel I may have seen something you overlooked. I'm sorry if somebody else already said this or something earlier in this thread, but I didn't exactly read through it yet. Well here it is...
The ultimate seems kinda iffy to me, at 80% hp missing you have a 40% damage reduction, and if your team is all dead minus you (which means the other team did a good thing in killing everyone on your team before the tank) then you gain 40% of your missing hp back, which is 32% of your max hp as a tank... which can be used on 3 (say the fight ended up a 2 for 4 and now you're in a 3v1 (one should prob be their tank also)) enemies almost back to back if you have full bloodthirst, or if you simply wait til 20% again to heal you can gain that healing quite a few times. This means that you can heal 100% of your hp in 12 seconds while sitting at a semi comfortable area before using the ability, and that ability does 225+2(115+bonus attack damage)=a minimum of 455 damage. A 455 damage ability that can heal you for 33% of your hp without you building any damage at all, and this ability with at most a 12 second CD that just encourages an Atma's and huge amounts of HP and resistances just scares me because I don't think any other champion can put them to nearly as good of a use as your champion even though an Atma's and HP/resist stacking is already really scary. I feel that giving this champion farm like you would a ranged carry bottom and getting an early Atmog's means that you wouldn't feel bad about getting in a teamfight where your team goes 2-4 or 3-4 in kills-deaths because you basically would be unstoppable. I know resource management would be an issue, but your ultimate makes you comparable to Olaf, as you get lower in health you become more dangerous, but you also become more resistant, allowing you to get more attacks off and live longer to get both ways of getting your resource back working better (living longer with resistance to damage as well as gaining attack speed).
This is just my two cents, I hope it helps.
Mit213


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Katsuni

Senior Member

10-18-2011

Thanks Mit213, it was a lil bit difficult to understand whot yeu were saying at first, but I think I see where yeu're going with this.

Lessee...

Quote:
The ultimate seems kinda iffy to me, at 80% hp you have a 40% damage reduction, and if your team is all dead minus you (which means the other team did a good thing in killing everyone on your team before the tank) then you gain 40% of your missing hp back, which is 32% of your max hp as a tank
So the situation we're looking at here, is exactly whot she's designed to do. Every other tank either "tanks" by constantly disabling enemies, or taunting. The idea here, is not to have her strong normally, but that she's supposed to be dangerous as hell if yeu ignore her. The whole "don't attack the tank >=O " yell yeu normally get, is the worst possible advice yeu could have while fighting her.

Kill her first, and she's relatively harmless, though able to do some tanking still, especially with matronage, which lets her leap into the way of other peoples' attacks to let herself be wounded instead. This typically means that she's going to be nearly dead pretty easy anyway.

If yeu ignore her, and spam aoe on her teammates, then she grows ridiculously strong as punishment for ignoring her. If she's left 4v1 against her, she'll probably win the fight. If yeu focus fire her down first, she's easy prey.

Now, for the numbers yeu were covering, they weren't very well stated, but I see whot yeu mean.

At 80% health missing (20% total health left), she has 40% damage reduction. This is true. Of course, by that point, she has very low health left to fight with anyway. She is supposed to stick around at low health, rather than run away. It does, however, mean that she survives a little longer at low health than most people, so it's not just a "they're under 50% just everyone focus fire and they instagib to death". It'll actually take a few seconds to kill her if she's wearing any sort of descent items. Hence, she's a tank only if yeu attack her, and has no way other than stealing the occasional hit from allies to draw fire.

Next off, once again, yeu're correct. If she's at 20% health, then yes, if all 4 of her allies are dead, she'll heal herself a full 32% of her maximum life, which'll set her at 52%. Then 19.2% healed off the second use, and 11.52% off the third use, if not attacked in between. This lets her recover very quickly when low on health *IF* her allies are all wounded or dead.

Which... as covered, is the last possible thing yeu'd want to do, is kill off her whole team and leave her alone until last. If yeu focus her down first, she heals for 0%. (well, 2% on melee attacks, but not that impressive).

Essentially, the problem yeu're having, seems to lie in the fear of building her as atmas, warmogs, and lots of armour/MR. This actually would be a fairly weak build on her, because she wouldn't need the atmas for the damage anyway, and would leave her weaker to getting attacked, which is the biggest problem.

Consider it this way:

She builds lots of damage, easy to kill - dies almost instantly, never does any damage.
Builds tanky, very hard to kill - dies slowly, draws fire for her team as a tank's supposed to without resorting to using a taunt mechanic; if she isn't killed first, she becomes a DPS powerhouse, but if killed first, she's only a tank with minimal damage output.

She builds bruiser; lots of health, moderate damage - still too squishy, even with an atma's and warmogs; she gets more damage, but it's not going to be enough to counteract that she's entirely too squishy now. Furthermore, the bonus damage on her ultimate only applies after her allies are dead or dying, so if she's easy to kill, she simply dies first, before anyone else, and never gets the bonus damage in the first place.

The whole point, is really to kill her first. Tossing an atma's and warmogs on her, is probably not the best move as yeu're looking at a good 5k gold gone that wasn't spent all that well on defense, other than the health. In most games, even if she had 40% damage reduction from full life (which she won't), with only a warmog's for defense, she'd still be more than easy enough to burn down from full life almost instantly mid game with a single focused fire salvo from an enemy team.

1v1 she's weak. 5v5 she's potent and useful, but not really much more so than any current tank. 1v5, after her allies are dead, yes, she's ridiculously overpowered, because the counter to that is to kill her first.

I do see the problem, but at the same time, it's kind of like complaining that Veigar is OP because if yeu're a mage who stacks pure AP and zero MR or health, and are 100% defenseless, his ultimate 1 shots yeu. Well... yeah, because yeu put yeurself in the worst possible position to fight him, and turned him into the perfect counter for yeur character. If that's yeur gameplan, then yeu kind of deserve to die in that case.

If yeu kill the entire team and flat out ignore the tank, there will be punishment for doing so, lots of it. If yeu kill her first, she's effective without being too strong. Just change yeur strategy to exploit her weak point.

As such, she'll probably be a newbie killer, but perfectly fine for balance on any descent end game above 800elo. Unfortunately, yeu can only cater to stupid people so much. If they really want to suicide themselves that badly, at some point yeu just have to let them do it.


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Mit213

Senior Member

10-18-2011

When you say building an Atma's on her is going to make her too squishy, well would replacing a Randuin's Omen with a cheaper Atma's really hurt her survivabilty too terribly much (An Atma's without Warmog's still gives a pretty good amount of AD, especially if you build HP which is what I am guessing you'd build a bit of as a tank regardless)? And if she can whoop people in a 4v1, why would you ever play any tank but her? If built full tank you have to let the dps on the other team attack a lot more than they would normally, but if they focus the dps, then you become an indestructable super tank nuke beastmode carry. I know for Garen, you don't want to let him run around in your backfield brutalizing your mage(s) and carry, but that isn't something you need to focus down the tankiest enemy on the other team to avoid.


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Samus93

Senior Member

10-20-2011

hmmmmm mit has a point .... the ult is kinda strong. I mean you have to remember that all abilities use health and Bloodthirst so she's gonna get low on both very quickly, however Nemhain IS incredibly powerful at low health so its kinda not fair. I agree with you Kat, that its their own fault if they choose to focus her last, but at the same time she is gonna be strong at every stage of a team fight and just become unbeatable afterwards. Tweak the Ult a bit, and maybe a few of the other stats that affect her low-hp sustainability. She is strong. But thats a good thing remember Skarner vs. Brand, making a champ OP to begin with makes mroe people like them ....


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Katsuni

Senior Member

10-20-2011

Hrm, could be possible. Alright, yeu two have convinced me that it's probably a bit much at the moment. So hard to tell whot's valid criticism and whot's just random fears sometimes =3

I suppose the easiest thing to do here, is to tone down the damage overall as a whole, and put more emphasis on Matronage, likely. This will put further emphasis on her 'tanking' capacity, and get her down lower on health easier... maybe remove the damage portion of her passive entirely, and ramp the healing back up on it a bit so she can still jungle... it's kind of a tweak over the whole thing, but basically, want her to be a little more adept at surviving damage when people AREN'T dead then... and a little better at taking the hits for her allies. Hrm, maybe build the damage reduction part of her ultimate into matronage instead, so she only gets damage reduction after stealing a hit from an ally?

It'd put significant more emphasis on the tanking part, without being a global benefit.

Still, I do want her to be strong when her allies are all dead, but yeu're correct in that she's a little bit too strong even when they're not. As such, probably will make a bunch of changes across the board here to rebalance towards that goal.

Shouldn't be too hard, but my mind's not thinking too clearly right now so I think I'll save it for later when I'm more awake. Last thing I want to do is screw around with number crunching when I can't focus, and end up destroying everything XD

Still, thanks for the insights =3


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Ire Researcher

Senior Member

10-30-2011

She seems like someone REALLY hard to bring down, with her bloodthirst reducing CDR, bloodied effects, (which I'm not sure if they proc with abilities...)

Instead of trying to bring her down first, she seems like someone that I, playing a carry, would rather avoid at all costs. You've done a lot of excellent work with the numbers, but percentages are a dangerous thing to use.

I notice that her frenzy increases based on missing health, so the less health she has, the more dangerous she is, making her even less likely to be the target... and while her abilities use up her own health, it makes it very hard for assassins to take out this champion, since an attempted gank could be met with a Frenzy, smashing any squishy assassin to bits, which would make the game less fun for people playing as assassins.

Still, I'm probably not the best reviewer, but this appears to be thought out well.


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Samus93

Senior Member

11-01-2011

hmmm Ire i think you have the wrong idea, plus you contradict yourself. you say that you wouldnt want to focus Nemhain because she only gets stronger the lower her health gets, but then you say that because she loses health from abilities so quickly she reaches that low hp-threshold too quickly and hence deals too much damage too easily. The whole point of Nemhain is that if you ignore her in a team fight she deals lots of damage and actually grows stronger, whereas if you focus her she actually loses health quite quickly unless she refuses to use abilities, in which case she loses a lot of her utility and damage output before dying. Which is exactly what a tank is supposed to do obviously numbers and such can't be checked yet, but the concept is sound.

Oh and katsuni, i just posted up my latest suggestion i ended up scrapping that other idea because it just wasnt working, so i started on a support idea i thought of a whle back. which then turned into me making a support AND a tanky DPS with a similar concept to Nemhain, which then turned into me working on them AND on a new caster .... see when i start on the abilities of one champ, i always think about abilities that fit other genres as well, which leads into me wanting to make more then one suggestion :P terrible habit, but meh. I dont have too much left to go on the tank or the support, got a basic background for both but am just missing an ability or too for each. buttttt, my caster is done, although now i cant figure out where they moved the frigging link button to -.- so here's the URL:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=16669379#post16669379
Check it out if you want, he's called Salizar - The Arcane Remnant. I'm not too happy with the Lore, too long-winded and doesnt explain enough about the champ, but i'll fix it up later i guess. anyways, keep up the good work with Nemhain!


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Katsuni

Senior Member

11-01-2011

Well, ire does have a point in some ways, as do the others, though so does Samus93. Point is, my "corrections" for dominion, kind of upset the balance a bit too heavily in favour of damage output. I'll be correcting this in a little bit, and already have some ideas on how to fix things (such as changing her passive to draw an equal % of damage/healing, based upon how low her current % health is, and lowering her base stats, while scaling them with health missing as well. She does do a viciously brutal job at low life and when not focused. The problem is, she also does entirely too good of a job when they are NOT the case. As such, she'll be staying roughly about as powerful as she is right now at her peak condition, but her non-peak will be taking a substantial hit across the board. I'd do it right now, but I have a thousand things to do right now. One of which is the very real possibility of becoming lead writer for an upcoming MMO ^.~ Should have word back on that within the next few days ^^ Assuming, of course, my skype interview ever occurs... they were supposed to call about an hour and a half ago. Hope they didn't get hit with another big earthquake (client is in japan ). Anyway! Nemhain's not dead yet, and she does have a bit of a balance overhaul incoming shortly. I just need time to work on it when I'm not busy elsewhere. The last lil bit has been semi hectic, hence why I haven't posted hardly anything in the last few days at all.


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Samus93

Senior Member

11-27-2011

bump