[Champion Suggestion] Nemhain the Alpha Prioress

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JykkntiBlind

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

06-27-2012

This seems really overpowered... Ill probably come back later to give examples, the character you made is basically a tankier lee sin with extra damage :/ The only difference is that your abilities change depending on your passive, not second activation. But still, a charge, dash w/ shield, knock back, and slow :/...

The problem here isn't that she's too like another champion, it's an innovative change that I think is very cool, the problem here is that every time I hear a red talk about lee sin they're always like... WHAT WERE WE THINKING WHEN WE MADE THIS CHAMP!!! MOBILITY IS OP, AND SO NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, HE'S EITHER OP OR UP.

She simply has enough in her kit to fill out two champions. A tank based upon mobility and low cool downs, and a hyper carry based upon duration of combat.

If you compare Nemhain to other tanks, she has mild crowd control, mobility, and damage on top of her tankiness.

Lee sin has less crowd control(knock back is on an ult cd), mobility, and what looks like less damage as well.

Shyvana and Udyr have little to no crowd control, good mobility, and probably comparative damage, with the same tankiness.

Leona has way more cc, but no mobility, and very little damage.

Alistar is the same, with more tankiness, and crowd control, but less mobility and damage.

What I'm trying to say, is that if you wanted to design an overpowered tank, who had all four staples, ability to soak up damage, crowd control, damage(threat), and mobility then this champion would be perfect. But that making a tank with crowd control means that you have to choose between the mobility and the damage.

The entire concept is flawed... If you focus her down then you lose the team fight, because you just focused down the tank and got your team destroyed, or you ignore the tank and you kill four of them and get your team destroyed... I think a tank/support based on the knock back, and intercept, and then another character based on the bloodthirst resource system would be much more balanced.

I like the character, and I love the tank intercept ability, but this character simply has too much. :/


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PirateBurrito

Senior Member

06-28-2012

FUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKING FURIES meh ok lol


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Digger77

Junior Member

06-28-2012

I find this champion a bit OP, being able to CC everyone on the team, and prevent them from escaping, and also doing enough damage to not be classified as a tank.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Katsuni

Senior Member

06-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateBurrito View Post
FUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKING FURIES meh ok lol
Uhm... 'kay?

Not sure I see the issue either way. I wasn't considering furries at the time, was actually aiming for "gnoll", which is a pretty standard race. May as well start harping on dragons next >.>;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger77 View Post
I find this champion a bit OP, being able to CC everyone on the team, and prevent them from escaping, and also doing enough damage to not be classified as a tank.
Well the biggest issue there, is that other tanks can do a better job of it anyway. She can knock people back, and doesn't have cooldowns, yes, but also requires fury to do so, of which she can't get enough to just pound an entire team in a row, and instead will take some time.

Amumu can root an entire team and stun another person afterward. Nemhain can... knock two people back, and can lower several's armour and MR, but can't really provide endless CC in the way people may first think. Essentially, she has the standard abilities a tank would have being "AoE", and instead broke each down into single target abilities with no cool down so that she can use them repeatedly on singular targets in a short time frame, without feeling bored, since a normal tank blows 2-3 cool downs (like Cho'gath), and then is kinda just bland and boring afterward since all they can do is autoattack at that point.

As such, it's actually not nearly as strong as it may first sound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JykkntiBlind View Post
This seems really overpowered... Ill probably come back later to give examples, the character you made is basically a tankier lee sin with extra damage :/ The only difference is that your abilities change depending on your passive, not second activation. But still, a charge, dash w/ shield, knock back, and slow :/...
Hrm I actually have never even considered Lee Sin for a comparison model from the start. There are some definite similarities, in many ways, and she would have a moderately similar feel in a way, due to the constant juggling of abilities and weaving in auto-attacks in between.

That being said, I don't honestly feel that she'll end up as "Lee Sin but with more defense and more offense" on top of such.
Quote:
The problem here isn't that she's too like another champion, it's an innovative change that I think is very cool, the problem here is that every time I hear a red talk about lee sin they're always like... WHAT WERE WE THINKING WHEN WE MADE THIS CHAMP!!! MOBILITY IS OP, AND SO NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, HE'S EITHER OP OR UP.
Yarr mobility can be very powerful in the game. This is something that there's no real argument over, and it is an intentional choice. On the other hand, while she operates a little vaguely similar to Lee Sin, she's also not able to make quite as much use out of that excessively high mobility as others, due to the way the passive actually works. She *CAN* dash at an enemy, but often she'd rather just dash at someone else first, then run into melee with a second, hit them in melee, THEN dash them while they're in melee already, otherwise she loses a significant portion of the effectiveness of her tools. Lee Sin, as well as other champions such as Shyvana, or Rammus, who have fairly strong mobility and can perform as offtanks or full tanks, can unload their entire strength and effectiveness immediately after their charge, with no penalty, whereas Nemhain is designed with this in mind so that yeu actually do suffer some penalties.

The idea is that yeu use her abilities either A: for mobility, or B: for utility. She generally doesn't get access to both at the same time, and has to pick one or the other in most situations, leading to encouraging good game play elements.

Every other example... the mobility and utility go hand in hand, which is why they end up being so difficult to balance.
Quote:
She simply has enough in her kit to fill out two champions. A tank based upon mobility and low cool downs, and a hyper carry based upon duration of combat.
This is admittedly true, yes. In working with so complex of a problem, she has to do a great number of tasks in a spread out fashion, since she never gets the option to have all of her abilities up at the same time on multiple targets. Rather than having the capacity to unload a constant stream of effects on one target endlessly, instead she spreads her effects out over time.

If I went back and removed her passive and the bloodied effects, she'd actually be amazingly underpowered. High mobility, but not able to put such to use.

In short, she's complex because she needs to be complex to make her gameplay actually work. She's certainly not a champion that newbies would get a ton of use out of, and would be by far the highest skill cap champion in the entire game.

The amusing part is... her individual abilities aren't really that complex. They each have essentially a primary function, and a secondary benefit if she's already hit her target in melee. Each individual ability is actually pretty much normal for any other champion.

She just has... a unique mixture, which turns into being far more complex than most.

In a way, she's powerful because she's versatile, and able to change her order of attacks and abilities to suit each new situation. The most overpowered thing about her is that a top notch player would be able to have "something" they could do in almost any given situation. It wouldn't be an overpowered something, it wouldn't be a remarkably strong something, but they'd never be left simply watching something go terribly wrong without being able to intervene and have at least some effect on the outcome.

So... yeah, yeah she has a remarkably robust kit... but she can't bring it all to bare. On a full Fury bar, she can use each ability once, which is about the same as any other tank. The downside is, any other true tank would have 1-3 of those being AoE effects, and at least one of them being considerably useful hard CC of some sort.

In her case, she can only inflict single target effects, but can do so very quickly, just not to the same target more than once in a row. As such, she can choose to say... cast Feral Charge, repeatedly, 4 times in a row. If she does so, however, all she does is pinball around the field, doing low damage to 4 targets and not really being that effective. If she Q's at one target, hits their friend in melee, dashes to their carry, hits them in melee once, then walks behind them and E's them into her allies, then dashes back to the second target, that's when yeu get to see the full force of her power coming to bare.
Quote:
If you compare Nemhain to other tanks, she has mild crowd control, mobility, and damage on top of her tankiness.

Lee sin has less crowd control(knock back is on an ult cd), mobility, and what looks like less damage as well.

Shyvana and Udyr have little to no crowd control, good mobility, and probably comparative damage, with the same tankiness.
Honestly, these aren't really full on tanks, they're hybrid bruiser/offtanks, which are capable of providing interruptions, but still providing high damage output. Udyr can still wreck faces hardcore in a fight, even if building tanky. So can Shyvana, and so can Lee Sin.

The main difference here, is they can harass a single target and just wail on them the whole time. If Nemhain tries to do this... she's pretty much dead weight to her team.

Nemhain sucks, flat out, at focusing down a single target. If she tries to do so, she's going to be pretty much useless to her team. Give Shyvana some armour and health, then load her up with some damage, and she can still wreck faces. Nemhain's less effective, using her entire Fury bar, than Shyvana's capable of doing off Burnout alone, without any other abilities.

The issue once again comes down to the capacity to do an AoE effect to a group, vs a single target effect.

Udyr's probably the closest one in game to Nemhain, due to his bear stance's stun effect only working on a particular target on occasion, which is a very similar system to hers. Oddly enough I only just realized this now, and it would've been easier to base the system off of his, but oh well XD

The thing is... Udyr's stun is potent and useful in a team fight as can be seen, similar to Jarvan, by moving around and giving everyone a taste of their effects. It spreads the effectiveness out over a wide area, and over a few seconds, which is a key difference.

When Malphite uses his ultimate, yeu can kill 1-2 people before they can fight back sometimes, which can determine the entire team fight, since he knocked out a good chunk of an entire team, usually 2-4 people, which can be a major asset.

When Udyr runs up and pokes someone for his stun in bear stance, then turns and pokes someone else, over and over, he's doing the same overall effectiveness... but only on paper. I think we can all agree that Udyr's bear stance, while moderately effective, is nowhere near on par with Curse of the sad mummy, Idol of durand, or even Cho'gath's rupture at times.

The key is in how quickly one can implement that effectiveness. 1.5 seconds of stun, followed by another 1.5 to a second target, does not equal 1.5 seconds stun to two targets at the same time.

Lee Sin's safeguard gives himself and his target a shield, providing benefit to two targets at once, excellent for AoE effects. His Tempest and Cripple can hit 2-4 people depending on positioning, which once again is simply more effective than Nemhain's own versions, especially due to her far more complex set up mechanics to provide the same effects.

Overall, I do think she'll be fairly strong and potent, a force to be reckoned with in the right hands. I do not, however, believe she'll honestly be any more powerful than Lee Sin.
Quote:
Leona has way more cc, but no mobility, and very little damage.

Alistar is the same, with more tankiness, and crowd control, but less mobility and damage.
I've personally found Leona to have fairly good mobility, due to her dash skillshot, and the endless CC she has. Sure, she only has the one form of mobility, but once she's in range, it's near impossible to leave range again because she'll keep yeu chain-CC'd for a remarkably long time by herself.

Alistar, same thing; he can CC a large group and survive the attacks of a large group better. He sacrifices the capacity to be mobile, for the capacity to walk right into an enemy team and set up a perfect kill that will be near impossible to prevent.

Nemhain, conversely... can't do that. She trades off the capacity to effectively hard CC, or harm multiple targets at a time, for her mobility and versatility. It's all a matter of tradeoffs in the end =3
Quote:
What I'm trying to say, is that if you wanted to design an overpowered tank, who had all four staples, ability to soak up damage, crowd control, damage(threat), and mobility then this champion would be perfect. But that making a tank with crowd control means that you have to choose between the mobility and the damage.
If she had all of that? Sure. In reality, her crowd control is subpar, the damage is only particularly great if she's the last one alive, and her survival capacity requires her to be hitting every target that attacks her with a melee attack of her own; if she's focused down hard, she's remarkably rather squishy.
Quote:
The entire concept is flawed... If you focus her down then you lose the team fight, because you just focused down the tank and got your team destroyed, or you ignore the tank and you kill four of them and get your team destroyed... I think a tank/support based on the knock back, and intercept, and then another character based on the bloodthirst resource system would be much more balanced.
In reality, focusing down the tank is not necessarily a bad idea, especially not in this case as she's quite soft and squishy until she's been in combat for awhile. During the first few seconds of a team fight, however, yeu can remove her with relative ease, even if she builds tanky items.

The low level games, people go DONT FOCUS THE TANK WTF R U DOIN!? In higher end games, people realize that it can be worth it to sometimes nail a tank with chained CC, as a well built tank is a threat to the entire team fight if they aren't locked down hard, as it only takes a few seconds of a tank running free to screw up an entire fight.

Nemhain simply takes this fact that already exists, and amplifies it a bit further, forcing the matter more than others. She doesn't CC people, preventing them from attacking, instead she encourages them to attack her instead of someone else during that time. She's a walking taunt aura without a mechanical taunt. Kind of like... all the other tanks in the game, she's just a bit less blatantly obvious about it, since unlike Rammus, she can't physically force someone to hit her in the face, it's just a bad idea for them not to do so.

In any real game, in practice, if yeu ignore the tank, yeu're probably going to lose anyway. This mindset of "Don't attack the tank whotever yeu do!" is a large part of why many people are stuck in a supposed "elo hell". They're so focused on killing squishies, they ignore a potentially bigger threat. Sure, yeu got their carry, but in the time it took yeu to chase their carry down, half yeur team died because they were stunlocked the whole time from multiple AoE CC and were torn apart because of it.

If yeu ever design a tank where the ideal choice is to 100% ignore them, then yeu've failed in yeur job of making a tank that's able to tank. A tank that doesn't get hit is not a tank at all.
Quote:
I like the character, and I love the tank intercept ability, but this character simply has too much. :/
I understand yeur concerns, though personally I still feel they're not as bad as they could be by far. She has a very versatile kit, but the implementation of such makes her significantly less powerful than yeu make her out to be.

There was a thread back in general discussion awhile ago, though it's been awhile and I can't seem to find it anymore... but it essentially described every single champion in the game as OP.

When yeu focus solely on their strengths, and ignore their weak points, this tends to be the case.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Shadow of Time

Member

08-24-2012

wall of texts have a tendency to shut people down...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Petyr Baelish

Senior Member

08-25-2012

Katsuni, I really admire the effort you put into the Champion Concepts forum, and I wanted to see one of your own champion designs. You mention Nemhain a couple times in your v3 guide, so I decided to take a look at the concept.

One thing that really stands out about this design is how you took into account the way people think when they play LoL, and especially how the opposing team will respond to the actions of your champion. If they don't CC her, she will force them out of position, and if they don't focus her, she will rip them apart before they get the chance to take out her team. This is a unique take on soaking up damage for your team, and I believe it would work, if this champion was implemented in game.

The only problem is, what differentiates Nemhain from a carry? The carry, that one person on your team who can consistently deal remarkable amounts of damage, the one that takes all the kills and is snowballing out of control. The guy who gets all the buffs from your support, the person the tank struggles to protect from incoming damage. That very same carry the opposing burst caster is trying to nuke to the ground before their team gets utterly wrecked. Nemhain has great sustained damage output, and good scaling and snowballing potential. What is the difference between Nemhain and that guy?

Well, Nemhain doesn't need a tank - she can initiate just fine, and she can absorb a little damage while CCd and gain it back the next second. She gets rewarded for helping her allies, might even take some damage for them. Might even benefit from taking damage for them. But her disruption and damage is still strong enough that to the enemy burst caster, well, there just isn't another viable target.

Looking at Nemhain, I don't see any incentive to build her tanky. None of her abilities scale off health or armor, in fact, they seem to scale amazingly with attack speed. Her abilities even are able to compensate somewhat for her lack of tankiness - she takes reduced damage and heals herself with every basic attack. She isn't a glass cannon, but she's no Mundo either, and she definitely isn't a Rammus.

At some point, the difference between this style of tank and a true carry is that the tank wants to take damage. The tank feels like they are fulfilling their role when the entire enemy team unloads on them, whereas a carry in the same situation would feel like their team has abandoned them. As a tank, the stacking mechanic on your W is to encourage enemies to focus you, as a carry, it allows for better snowballing and rewards your team for protecting you. It comes down to your attitude about taking damage.

The "meta" is a strange concept, and roles are defined by how you interact with other players. If you are trying to tank as Nemhain, you would rather she was labeled as a carry, because players want to focus the carry. This is like the "Tank Teemo" effect, where you feel a need to kill the Teemo even when he has a Warmogs and a Thornmail. It is all based on what Riot would label her as, and what her recommended items would be.

I know this isn't really a review, as I haven't talked at all about balance or told you what should be changed. The numbers look fine at a glance, but I couldn't say whether they are OP or UP without seeing how she is played in game first. I like your thought process for building Nemhain, and I think your design really shows how much open creative space there still is in champion creation.

My only real problem with this champ is the lack of elegance and intuitive play. Why does Nemhain want to hit everyone once, when doing so gives every enemy more time to dish out damage? What is up with those 4 icons floating over everyone's head, and why does everyone need to know the cooldowns of Nemhain's abilities on everyone else? Does she really need a gap closer, a slow, a heal, an attack speed reduction, a knockback, a shred, an attack speed boost, a knockback, a shield, a silence, a block for allies, more mobility, damage reduction, and another heal? There is some major complexity creep going on, and at least some of this can be itemized for. The ability descriptions seem incredibly complicated, I had to read through the entire thing three times before I quite understood what was going on.

Her cooldown icons don't need to be visible to everyone, we get around just fine without ever knowing the exact cooldowns of other player's abilities. They don't even need to be visible to the person they are on, as they are displayed as buffs, and they are not especially relevant to anyone but Nemhain. Rengar has shown us the cool things you can do with graphics, and this is my advice:

When you click your hotkey for an ability, targetable units light up in red, while targets marked with cooldowns show some sort of icon that tells you how much longer it is until you can use the ability on that target. You can then left click on any targetable unit, or right click and cancel the ability.
For those of us who smartcast, you would hold down to get the display, and the ability would target whoever your mouse was over when you released it. This way, if you know a target has not had that ability used on them recently, you can just click the key with your mouse over them and get the effect.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Skyhawke

Senior Member

09-04-2012

I want to give a full, detailed review when I have more time Kat, but for now I have a quick suggestion for her background story (the shorter one, I'll have to read the full story later). Since the "insatiable bloodthirst" angle is already fulfilled, I would have liked to see just a bit more focus towards the "matron taking care of her people" angle. You hinted at it with one line, but in the end you said she just fought in the League to fulfill her bloodlust. I would come back to the idea that she could gain respect and protection for her people in the end there.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Katsuni

Senior Member

09-04-2012

Yarr, thanks for bumping this; and thanks for the detailed review as well Petyr, yeu've brought up some points I would like to go over and fix up on her design now =3

As I've stated, there's no way to see all ends, and we all need peer review to some degree. I apologize for the terse tone I took with Jykk, though I do still hold that I don't see those issues as being actual problems.

Still, some of the things such as the damage output needs to be dropped a bit, however, I'm not about to give her scaling off defensive stats either. I just got through like 4 hours of painting a deck, have to work some more on perfecting a cover letter / resume for a particular position that's being tricky to nail down, get more info ironed out for the Q&A's 3rd broadcast next week, and of course there's a tabletop RPG system I'm in the middle of developing, not to mention making supper, cleaning the house and a bunch of other things.

The idea of "free time" mostly goes to chatting with friends and such, so I've not had much to spend on evaluating the reviews and implementing revisions sadly ;_;

Still, I'll try to get around to it because she could use another overhaul, and I'd like to get some icons and such in there finally RAWR!

If only I had time to blow about 5-10 hours on mudbox to make a really nice figurine of her ;_;

In any case, hope to discuss this soon!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

astralInferno

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

11-12-2012

She looks pretty cool! My main concern would be thematics. A hyena woman with a pair of axes, in the thick of the enemy... and she's a tank? That character just screams DPS, to me.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Shadow of Time

Member

11-20-2012

and Olaf isn't a tank? He's a viking with a pair of axes. She could look burly, though this is LoL, where all females need to have all the right curves...