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[Guide] God Tier Aura Sivir

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Arctyc

Member

03-12-2010

Quote:
Zingledot:
Know where there might be some good videos from a Sivir perspective. These last couple days I'm getting a loss for every win and while its not all my fault (been getting some fairly sub-par teams. I pretty much expect a loss when they have alistair and we have no tank. Actually, I don't think I've had a tank in the last 5+ games...), pretty much every sivir mirror match in the mid beats me so I know I'm not doing everything I can. I'll figure it out eventually, but it would be nice to see if there is any particular technique I'm not getting quite right.


Mirror matches and midfield matches against non-ganker opponents are why I take Clarity with Sivir.

Meki, 2 Health Potions, and typically Tele/Clarity to start. I can push that hero back onto their tower and hold them there with maxrange BBs, BB+Ricochet entire creep waves before they hit my own minions, and so on. Clarity lets me throw twice as many BBs as they can.

It's a pretty heavy micro though, you have to be *very* aware of the minimap so a side lane doesn't come over and gank you, and you have to be careful to not give the enemy the opportunity to double tag you with their own BB, or their tower. Keep moving, be unpredictable, figure out the range where your escapes are either to the side or away.


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Slide

Senior Member

03-12-2010

In draft mode, I would agree with you Arctyc. Knowing youd be facing an opposing Sivir could warrant clarity over Rally. It would indeed help for that early laning. Its pretty useless otherwise though and rally is by far and large a hell of a lot better.

Considering we are stuck with blind pick, your risking taking a summoner spell that only helps for a third of the game and you sacrifice something that helps at all points of the game.

The other issue I see with it is, if your oponent is good at dodging BB, and Sivir players should, your extra BB's could be for not.

In my opinion it is a tactic that has too many unknowns to be a viable pick. Once draft pick is implemented this might change, but of course we will have to deal with an entire metagame shift at that point and who knows what will happen.

Again, not a bad idea, but Im not convinced in taking a summoner spell for the off chance of countering a mirror match.


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MBirk

Senior Member

03-12-2010

Yeah. Ill third the comments by quickslide and gunslinger on a mirror match vs Sivir.

Another thing, you probably want to focus more on richo and sheild n that instance. While typically we say BB over richo.
Her range means rank2 or 3 richo will have a good chance of harassing the other sivir. And if the other sivir focuses on BB, your spellshield will make short work of that. while the same can be said of your bb.



Quickslides def mastery build probably effects the aegis vs starks argument alot. While I say aegis/emblem is far more survival and thus living longer=more exp/gold/damage, he doesn't need that extra presence first.

I actually run a 9/0/21 build. Cuase I'm too lazy to hotswap before games. Built more for mages, as Anivia is my "main".
A few of the abilities are still useful for sivir.
4%life/manaregen
5% total mana.
3% movement.
30% longer neutral buffs. (Remembering you have this and making use of lizard is very important.)
15% reduced cd on summener spells. I run rally and clairvoyance typically.
9% reduced CD. Not godlike for sivir by any means. But slightly more often BB, ss, and oth isn't terrible.

It does let me BB harder (magic pen, and +ap), more often(cd reduction, and mana)

And I can spam clairvoyance like a Mofo to push my teamwork even farther.


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Slide

Senior Member

03-12-2010

I disagree with ricochet over BB. Any Sivir worth her salt knows where to stand to not get hit by the enemies ricochet. As far as push goes, BB pushes harder then rico at those levels (not enough bounces, not enough attack speed, not enough base damage).

Every time I face off against a Sivir that takes Rico instead of BB I laugh. When it comes down to a faceoff, your going to rip them a new one and all you need to do now is FORCE those faceoffs. Rush the enemy Sivir. The only thing you need to work on is faking your BB's so the enemy Sivir wastes spellshield. This is simply done by only using BB when you rush them once you get to close range. The first couple times you do this, they will spellshield early. You wait out the 3 seconds and nail them. Eventually they will realise whats going on and wait. This is when you switch it up and launch BB as soon as you move toward them. Switch between those 2 methods and the enemy Sivir will be paying too much attention to you to effectively harass or last hit.

If your enemy has taken rico early, you have NOTHING to fear from them. Engage them in normal auto attack range where you both do the same damage and ricochet does nothing for them. Your higher BB damage will win out in the end.

The ONLY time I take rico in early laning (deviating from taking BB priority with SS at level 2) is if im facing a melee champ as you are pretty much guaranteed the auto harass while you farm. The range nerf MAY change this, but I seriously doubt is as 50 range is a rather small distance and that means the enemy Sivir will also have to be closer to you in order to be attacking creeps. As we know, the closer you are, the easier it is to hit with BB.

Clairvoyance is certainly an option, but its generally better to let someone else get it. Course that is an option that low ranked players might not have.....of course, the lower the rank, the less effectove clair is, so it could be moot.

I think you hit it right on the head with masteries. I really never have problems with early survivability and I get a lot of kills on champs who think they can take me down. A large part of why its so effective is the remarkably reduced damage that creep waves do to you. That 2 less creep damage, 1 less physical damage and 4% damage reduction (in addition to your armor and dodge) make a HUGE difference when were talking about a LOT of low damage attacks. In a battle mid creep waves, your oponent takes a HELL of a lot more damage then you do. Doubly so as chances are, during this fight your passively killing off creeps faster then they are. Having 6 creeps attack your enemy for 10 damage each as oposed to 4 creeps attacking you for 5 damage each adds up to a rather large difference very quickly.

Also, Ive got to say it, the only thing in the utility that REALLY benefits Sivir is the 3% MS. The rest is nice, but doesnt effect her as much. 4% life and mana regen? We get no extra health regen and 4% of passive health regen is, well, nothing lol. Mana regen, 4% isnt a big deal, especially since we take chalice for our mana regen (it and some clarity runes really should be all you need). Neutral buffs are always nice, but there are a limited amount and youll find more often then not that someone else on your team could make better use of it. Reduced CD is always good (both summoner and your skills) but as you mentioned it doesnt have THAT large an affect. I could see the 1 mana per second regen being very useful as a swap out for clarity runes, but Im not entirely sure what you would do with the rest of your points nor that it would, in the end, be better then a def spec.

Ive tried the 9/0/21 and I have to say, your a HELL of a lot squishier without that defensive spec and it really throws a monkey wrench into my plan. I have the early game with Sivir worked out to a science and it seems that the defensive mastery tree plays a LARGE part of that.


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

03-12-2010

Quote:
Quickslides def mastery build probably effects the aegis vs starks argument alot.


Most likely. I run 11/0/19 on Sivir, which gives me very strong mana regen as well as extra movespeed. In addition, my autoattack harass hits relatively hard. As a result I tend to move and attack a lot more, making less use of attack speed pumps.

The plus to the overall setup is that when I buy a Chalice, I have enough mana regen to spam BB almost on cooldown, with Ricochet up for every attack.

Quote:
Ive tried the 9/0/21 and I have to say, your a HELL of a lot squishier without that defensive spec and it really throws a monkey wrench into my plan. I have the early game with Sivir worked out to a science and it seems that the defensive mastery tree plays a LARGE part of that.


Based on your comments about the -creep damage (which is highly relevant in certain situations, particularly when Sivir is using a Meki as a starting item), I think I'll probably shuffle things with an 11/19/0 build, or some blend. The ArPen in offense is too good.

Are you using HP quints btw?

-------------------------

As far as other notes from the discussion on the previous page:

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Starks, even by itself, is well worth the cost on JUST you.


Starks is efficient, but not necessarily effective, re: the discussion on mastery specs and autoattack playstyle.

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What I can tell you is, your math on +10 damage doing more for Sivir then 45% attack speed is wrong. Doubly so if you get a brutalizer (which isnt bad on Sivir at all by the way, just not optimal for this build/strat). The problem being of course, OTH is only active for 15 seconds every 90 seconds. This is not enough attack speed for Sivir.


Versus creeps, Sivir has no problem with any build.

Versus the tower, the concept is that Stark's provides no armor debuff, only the IAS. Aegis provides the damage and armor buffs to all creeps (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong). The Brutalizer, as an item, provides ~20-35% increased physical damage. The Recurve bow provides 40%, if you have no other attack speed pumps. Your build has like 30%+ at level 1, so the Recurve is netting you a ~30% increase in damage. Nevermind the raw damage on the Brutalizer, or the CDR.

Quote:
I wouldnt consider it before starks though as I find that the lifesteal components and from starks itself is essential to Sivirs good progression in games.


I find the lifesteal overrated. Generally, I wipe creeps waves too quickly to get much HP back (I use BB to wipe them as well). As a result, the main value of Stark's through early-mid for me is the IAS and armor debuff (which doesn't work on towers).


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Slide

Senior Member

03-12-2010

Quote:
EasymodeX:
Most likely. I run 11/0/19 on Sivir, which gives me very strong mana regen as well as extra movespeed. In addition, my autoattack harass hits relatively hard. As a result I tend to move and attack a lot more, making less use of attack speed pumps.

The plus to the overall setup is that when I buy a Chalice, I have enough mana regen to spam BB almost on cooldown, with Ricochet up for every attack.


Whats your rune setup? Once I have chalice I spam the **** out of every ability whenever I need it and dont have trouble. I dont spam BB every 9 seconds as creep waves come every 30 (and you really only need 1 BB per wave) and there isnt an opportunity to nail a champ with it every 9 seconds either. Toggling ricochet doesnt even require thought anymore, its automatic. So I dont waste ANY mana on unneeded ricochet. Do you just permanently leave it on?


Quote:
EasymodeX:

Based on your comments about the -creep damage (which is highly relevant in certain situations, particularly when Sivir is using a Meki as a starting item), I think I'll probably shuffle things with an 11/19/0 build, or some blend. The ArPen in offense is too good.


Actually I encourage you to spec out 21 points in defense and actually try to use this to your advantage. You may decide afterwards that you can deal without the 15 hp and 4% damage reduction, but it will give you a really good idea of just what kind of damage you can rely on from the creep wave. Your right, it can certainly be highly relevant and ensuring to make use of it can be a very powerful tactic.

Quote:
EasymodeX:

Are you using HP quints btw?


Nope, Attack Speed. I start with 32% attack speed. If Im not getting mega harassed, I WILL get every last hit. All it takes is knowing your BB, attack damage and paying attention to which enemy minions your minions attack. And having a fast enough attack speed of course. Every wave there is always 2 or 3 minions that decide to die in close succession. The attack speed lets me last hit all of them. By the time BB and ricochet are up and this is meaningless, it serves to increase my chances in a one on one faceoff.

Quote:
EasymodeX:

Starks is efficient, but not necessarily effective, re: the discussion on mastery specs and autoattack playstyle.


Understand what you mean, but still disagree. **** things the best item in the game. Flat out. Once its complete, there are always opportunities to roll with teammates (at decent ELO, well aware of the problem at low and just discounting it for now, this is just my opinion for my own play) and no one is going to argue that your going to get better results from your gold then what starks is going to give you and 1-4 buddies (especially since any particular counter item you need can be gotten by someone else). When you take into account that its more powerful the earlier you get it, I cant justify NOT getting it in the absolutely shortest time thats feasible. Hell sometimes I even complete it before boots 2 and make the early assault like that. There is a HUGE difference in making that push 2 minutes earlier or later. Absolutely need chalices regen, absolutely need the 50 MS from boots 1. Anything else can wait.

If you can get starks at 10 and ding 11 after destroying the second turret in mid, you and your team are going to roll right on through that inhib and the only thing that will stop you is idiocy on your teams side. You just need that first perfect game where you get starks at a ridiculous time and have good teammates to boot. After you watch it happen you gain a real appreciation for just how powerful starks is and what a great tactic getting it as early as possible is.

Quote:
EasymodeX:

Versus the tower, the concept is that Stark's provides no armor debuff, only the IAS. Aegis provides the damage and armor buffs to all creeps (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong). The Brutalizer, as an item, provides ~20-35% increased physical damage. The Recurve bow provides 40%, if you have no other attack speed pumps. Your build has like 30%+ at level 1, so the Recurve is netting you a ~30% increase in damage. Nevermind the raw damage on the Brutalizer, or the CDR.


Yes your correct on aegis. Love it. Second most powerful item in game after starks. Used to be first before the nerfs to it and blanket defensive nerfs.

That doesnt change the fact that at this point, 2 or 3 of the first towers on the enemies side are down and your rushing up one of them with 2-4 of your teammates. Yes, Aegis is powerful and the increased damage to towers from the creep wave is quite meaningful, but starks is giving you and your teamates the attack speed bonus to increase your damage and the lifesteal and health regen to sustain your push. If the other team would be nice and just let us waltz down a lane with a huge creep wave and wreck their towers, yeah, aegis would be the way to go. In any real game though, your opponents are going to try and do SOMETHING to stop you. Health regen and lifesteal make a HUGE difference in that.

Now, after youve taken the first inhib and they are pushing the lane out waiting for super creeps, you DO have the luxury of pushing another lane pretty much unhindered and aegis becomes phenomenal (pretty sure I detailed how that works out earlier so I wont repeat it)
and nothing else will help more for that reason and others (which I also previously mentioned). I really feel that the pushing power of aegis, at least as far as the creeps are concerned, is tied to whether enemy champions are killing those creeps or not. Its pretty good logic, Im sure youll agree (dead creeps dont kill anything) and is just another factor in why I think starks should be first.

Quote:
EasymodeX:

I find the lifesteal overrated. Generally, I wipe creeps waves too quickly to get much HP back (I use BB to wipe them as well). As a result, the main value of Stark's through early-mid for me is the IAS and armor debuff (which doesn't work on towers).


You seem to be playing a different game then I. Riping down a lane with your teamates under starks doesnt require BB in any way (assaulting a tower does, no need for your creeps or your buddies to deviate) so you can gain a pretty decent amount of life on those. So do your teamates. Add in the 5 HP a second regen and as a whole, its pretty **** affective at keeping your health up. Makes a huge difference when your having mini team fight skirmishes or just full on teamfights of course. That IAS and Lifesteal on some champions that early gets a little silly. Ever see what happens when Yi, with just a malady gets under starks around level 8? Man its just stupid what he does to other heroes. Health doesnt even budge. Hes not the only one either. It happens a LOT (hes just the easiest to see what I mean).

Lastly, you do need SOME way to heal yourself. You get damaged. It happens. Passive regen sucks. Emblem is GREAT for it early on and its perfect, in my opinion that it turns right on into starks. How it builds up with in early game play is just yet one more reason to go starks in my mind.


By the way, really enjoying this. We havnt had even one instance of flaming or negativity in the thread so far and its been a really good discussion.

Cheers Folks


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

03-12-2010

Quote:
Riping down a lane with your teamates under starks doesnt require BB in any way (assaulting a tower does, no need for your creeps or your buddies to deviate) so you can gain a pretty decent amount of life on those



It doesn't require BB, but I use it anyways to push faster. As a result I get like 1-3 autoattacks in, which is negligible life recovery. Very qq.


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Slide

Senior Member

03-12-2010

So you run around for the first half of the game without any way to gain health? Sounds like suicide to me. Ill stick with my meaningless lifesteal thank you.


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Azing

Senior Member

03-12-2010

Good build really, although build wise getting Aegis can depend. Most often I notice that a Support champion does well to fit in with Aegis rather then Sivir. It can be effective but it all depends on the set up. I do agree completely with Starks on Sivir. Its invaluable to get and a key to any good Sivir build. Otherwise on Sivir I find it best to build up for damage and work at wrecking a team in a team fight. Aegis is just such a good item that if no one else is getting it on the team, then Sivir by far should get it.

@Quickslide: Chances are if your getting hurt enough to have to run back with Sivir, your playing her wrong. Though offensive individuals will be aggressive, spell shield and Ricochet should be fine enough in smacking most back and keeping them some distance from you once BB damage isn't so much of a threat. Sivir has a range advantage that can be played out easily. At the start Pots work fine in the fact she will need to be up closer and not so risky for other champions. Once you start progressing your Ricochet will just be forcing enemies to play more defensively with BB.


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

03-12-2010

Quote:
So you run around for the first half of the game without any way to gain health?


Durr health pots?

Generally speaking, if I need HP, I have very low HP and don't have the liberty to attack creeps. Otherwise, I don't take much damage between kiting and spell shield.