[Guide] God Tier Aura Sivir

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EasymodeX

Senior Member

03-29-2010

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I'm not sure I agree with that first statement.
She does have low hp. And no stun or snare to use to escape. But she does have shield to eat a good chunk of magic damage or a stun.
The issue is that you really need to use OTH to pop the tower, or else Sivir is no better killing a tower than any other champ.

Aside from that and spell shield, she's walking food. A half-assed gank can be dodged by spell shielding a CC, sure. But any competent gank is going to include exhaust/2 ccs/moreburst+ignite/root/stun/etc, and Sivir will die in 2 hits.

A variety of other champs would have an escape ability, or other means of GTFO'ing. Boomerang blade is a sustained combat threat and deterrent (or burst when stacked with burst from other champs).

Throwing it at them as you run won't change a thing unless they were ganking with half health or something else lulz-worthy.

So, Sivir becomes a glass AOE farm / tower push. However, in the sense of being glassy, she needs to really ensure that she's clear to push when she does. She can do this either with superior map awareness to ensure a gank isn't incoming in any "real" fashion, or by being with the group.


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Slide

Senior Member

03-29-2010

I was going to agree with Mbirk but that last sentence saved you.

Yes, playing any sort of flimsy champ requires good map awareness. IF you have it, you seem unkillable as Sivir with proper warning can get out of a lot of situations. OTH is indeed used primarily to push towers or win teamfights but it has happened to me PLENTY that I have an oportunity to push a tower while OTH is down, do so and end up popping OTH as I run for my life from the punitive gank squad.

It wont happen every time, but it certainly happens enough that it can be discussed here. Throwing it out the window because it is optimal to use it at other times doesnt change the fact that its not a toggle ability and you still need to wait in that cooldown sometimes.

I do take offense at saying OTH is what makes Sivir better at tower pushing or that that ability is her tower pushing capability. That is just patently wrong. Sivirs pushing/tower destroying prowess comes from the mix of BB and Ricochet. It is the fact that she can destroy creep waves so quickly that makes her the best pushing champ. It has little to do with OTH (though it certainly helps in addition to her true pushing power). Its the fact that she destroys creeop waves in seconds and can attack a tower while doing it. This lets your creep wave beat on the tower freely. With proper map awareness, even if you dont take the tower you can use this to chip away at it very quickly. You can always come back to that lane after your enemy abandons it and push the creep wave back to the tower in a mattaer of moments.

In any case, Sivirs pushing and tower destroying ability comes from how easily she manipulates the creep wave. OTH is a bonus on top of that. As is Aegis, As is Rally and they all play a large role in this guide.

Sometimes EasymodeX I think you forget what we already covered in this guide (just joking around, dont take offense)

Still waiting for you to accept that invite by the way.


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

03-29-2010

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Yes, playing any sort of flimsy champ requires good map awareness. IF you have it, you seem unkillable as Sivir with proper warning can get out of a lot of situations.
Honestly, the problem becomes that you can't feasibly push the tower (randomly, solo) because the other team has a good defensive competence. In which case, the solution as Sivir is to simply go find your buddies and steamroll something.

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Sivirs pushing/tower destroying prowess comes from the mix of BB and Ricochet.
Creep clearing is one thing. From that you could say that Ryze or Karthus are good tower pushers because they AOE stomp creep waves. Or Mordekaiser is a good tower pusher. Nidalee in catform.

Mord is a good "pusher", but doesn't do exceptionally well against towers (unless he gets his pet up). Karthus and Ryze are equally flatulent against towers. Sivir is pretty much the same, until you bust out OTH and such.

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Sometimes EasymodeX I think you forget what we already covered in this guide (just joking around, dont take offense)
Dunno, we're on page 13 or something. Wait ... there was a guide in this thread?

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Still waiting for you to accept that invite by the way.
Never got it, but I'm not surprised with how buggy the PvP.net client has been since the patch. Can't change masteries on champ select half the time, unable to connect to the PvP.net chat server more than half the time.


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Slide

Senior Member

03-29-2010

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Honestly, the problem becomes that you can't feasibly push the tower (randomly, solo) because the other team has a good defensive competence. In which case, the solution as Sivir is to simply go find your buddies and steamroll something.
Dude! Did someone get confused by this? I must have missed something!:

Priority 1: Run with team and steamroll everything
If Priority 1 is not feasable for whatever reason, check to see if you can solo push.

Pushing solo with Sivir is sub optimal. Were running Auras here, everyone should remember this. 5 man steamroll first, solo push if you cant.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Creep clearing is one thing. From that you could say that Ryze or Karthus are good tower pushers because they AOE stomp creep waves. Or Mordekaiser is a good tower pusher. Nidalee in catform.

Mord is a good "pusher", but doesn't do exceptionally well against towers (unless he gets his pet up). Karthus and Ryze are equally flatulent against towers. Sivir is pretty much the same, until you bust out OTH and such.
Oh come now, that was an easy cop out answer.

Ryze/Karthus = Magic Damage
Sivir = Physical Damage

Physical champs are better at pushing towers then magicals, you know that as well as I. The fact that Sivir is a physical champ who can clear lanes FASTER then magical champs is what does it. Her mana efficiency at it helps as well. Both Karthus and Ryze will go OOM keeping a creep wave against a tower (with proper oposition anyways) while Sivir can do it for a VERY long time, all the while damaging the tower as well.

I think you can agree Sivir is 10x the tower pusher mord is. However you mentioned Mords ult, with that thing to tank the tower, Mord gets put into the "great" catagory of pushers. You know that as well as anyone. However, even with the pet he doesnt demolish them as easily or quickly as Sivir does WITHOUT her ult.

Your comparing apples and oranges. Sivirs true potential against towers is how quickly she can get to them without backdooring and how easy it is for her to STAY at that tower damaging it the whole time and keeping her creep wave focused on it as well. This even works in mid VS competent oponents. I do it regularly to karthus. More then half my damage to that first tower is from the creep wave. It adds up very quickly. You just need to know how to use it.

Bottom line is there is a HUGE difference in how Sivirs AoE creep destruction and other champions AoE creep destruction works. Sivirs incorperates quite a bit of damage to the tower, everyone else you mentioned doesnt. OTH boost her capabilities, it is NOT her actual capability itself.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Dunno, we're on page 13 or something. Wait ... there was a guide in this thread?
Lol. I think you contribute a lot more to the forums (other then this thread and Sivir stuff in general) then I do and it makes it easy for you to forget). We covered that earlier on in this thread and you agreed with me.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Never got it, but I'm not surprised with how buggy the PvP.net client has been since the patch. Can't change masteries on champ select half the time, unable to connect to the PvP.net chat server more than half the time.
I noticed the same. Try sending me one?


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

03-29-2010

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Pushing solo with Sivir is sub optimal. Were running Auras here, everyone should remember this. 5 man steamroll first, solo push if you cant.
I was talking solo pushing at level 7 and stuff XD.

Many teams at my elo still don't get the concept of 5man pushing at 10 minutes, which strikes me as odd, but w/e.

Of course, that's probably me being lazy too. I need to just start switching lanes at level 7 and go push-happy with whatever people are there.

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More then half my damage to that first tower is from the creep wave. It adds up very quickly. You just need to know how to use it.
Now this I don't believe since you're running neither mp/5 runes nor utility mastery.

Not enough mana to pew pew mass creeps properly, unless the opponent is being nubsauce about feeding you mana. Against Karthus that's plausible since he has to spam his stuff to clear your inc creeps, so you can easily dive onto a lay waste.

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We covered that earlier on in this thread and you agreed with me.
Hehe I was j/k.

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I noticed the same. Try sending me one?
If I remember when I get home ...


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Mogri

Senior Member

03-29-2010

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Now this I don't believe since you're running neither mp/5 runes nor utility mastery.
A) Blue runes are mp/5. Don't know how you missed this.
B) Chalice basically gives you unlimited MP if you don't squander it. You'll easily get Chalice before you knock down the tower.


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Slide

Senior Member

03-29-2010

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
I was talking solo pushing at level 7 and stuff XD.

Many teams at my elo still don't get the concept of 5man pushing at 10 minutes, which strikes me as odd, but w/e.

Of course, that's probably me being lazy too. I need to just start switching lanes at level 7 and go push-happy with whatever people are there.
Um ok. At level 7 you should (as you mentioned) be pushing side lanes with your 2 team mates. You push mid by yourself and then get the first 2 towers down in the side lanes. This, more often then not, sets up with starks at level 11 for the 5 man push and your choice of lanes to do it in. Solo pushing a second tower is a RARE situation.

A 10 minute starks requires quite a few kills and I dont like relying on that as a LOT of kills with Sivir come from your enemy making mistakes.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Now this I don't believe since you're running neither mp/5 runes nor utility mastery.
More forgetfulness. I run (and is stated often in this thread and guide) Clarity Glyphs. Chalice by level 4 (5 at the LATEST) and mana is never a problem.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Not enough mana to pew pew mass creeps properly, unless the opponent is being nubsauce about feeding you mana. Against Karthus that's plausible since he has to spam his stuff to clear your inc creeps, so you can easily dive onto a lay waste.
Weve covered mana issues. But yes, Karthus does give quite a bit of mana to you. Point being, even without that you have plenty of mana. Efficiency wise its FAR less costly for you to keep the wave pushed then it is for Karthus (or Ryze or any other magical AoE'er). Throw in rally for good effect and hell yes that tower takes a LOT of damage from the xcreep wave. Properly timing your OTH with a big creep wave (and rally) is one of the most devastating things you can do to a tower that early in the entire game.


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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
If I remember when I get home ...
Doesnt hurt to try


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

03-29-2010

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A) Blue runes are mp/5. Don't know how you missed this.
I haven't looked at the first page in ages; yellow runes are stronger mp/5 and the recommendation is dodge instead.

I forgot that blue mp/5 existed actually. I'll have to take a second look at them. IIRC they were at 2/3s of yellows (which is pretty high for a non-primary rune, generally speaking).

... not enough IP for everything I want. Still due for an attack speed set of reds, mpen / arpen quints, flat AP blues so I can be a **** with Zilean, crit chance red set, flat HP quints, finish my dodge set of yellows. I suppose add mp5 blues to the list, qq. And an extra 2 runebook pages so I don't have to **** with reslotting them.

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B) Chalice basically gives you unlimited MP if you don't squander it. You'll easily get Chalice before you knock down the tower.
It's not unlimited if you are putting out the spam. I'll have to try out a more defensive Sivir methodology I suppose. Bottom line being: "squander" is such a subjective term.

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At level 7 you should (as you mentioned) be pushing side lanes with your 2 team mates. You push mid by yourself and then get the first 2 towers down in the side lanes.
Mid's not gonna go down with just Sivir in many cases, which is the crux of the matter. Or, it will take so long that you'll get ganked.

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Efficiency wise its FAR less costly for you to keep the wave pushed then it is for Karthus
Karthus can wipe creeps indefinitely for very little mana, if he's timing lay waste properly. That's a non-starter argument.

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(or Ryze or any other magical AoE'er).
Ryze can do it at almost zero cost every cooldown of his ult. Nidalee should be harassing you out of the lane (at like level 3). Ashe can sustain Volleys ad infinitum with a Catalyst, or simply 1 Volley per creep wave for long enough for teleport to come up. Annie would get pushed, if she didn't succeed at a stunbear combo (guaranteed with any teammate interference). Mord could defend all day. Trist would get pushed if she didn't kill you. Jax would probably kill you or harass you out of the lane. Karth would get pushed but should be able to defend more or less forever. Kat would get pushed if she didn't harass you out at early levels.

Honestly I don't see it as a viable option probably 80% of the time to solo mid and drop the first tower without interference from other lanes.

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Doesnt hurt to try
I know, I'm just saying there's an 80% chance I'll forget in the next 4 hours.


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Slide

Senior Member

03-29-2010

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
I haven't looked at the first page in ages; yellow runes are stronger mp/5 and the recommendation is dodge instead.

I forgot that blue mp/5 existed actually. I'll have to take a second look at them. IIRC they were at 2/3s of yellows (which is pretty high for a non-primary rune, generally speaking).
Actually I think Clarity Glyphs are the MOST powerful secondary rune. In any case, they certainly give you all you need in combination with chalice. Yes seals are dodge for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
... not enough IP for everything I want. Still due for an attack speed set of reds, mpen / arpen quints, flat AP blues so I can be a **** with Zilean, crit chance red set, flat HP quints, finish my dodge set of yellows. I suppose add mp5 blues to the list, qq. And an extra 2 runebook pages so I don't have to **** with reslotting them.
I hear ya man, and whats worse, if your like me, you spent your "OMG LOL is teh bestest game ever" crack addiction during beta before the 2 wipes. Without that crack addiction making me play 10 games a day the grind has been very painful this time around.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
It's not unlimited if you are putting out the spam. I'll have to try out a more defensive Sivir methodology I suppose. Bottom line being: "squander" is such a subjective term.
Regardless of semantics, once I get chalice, I am NEVER oom and I ALWAYS have the mana I need to do whatever it is I want. The later it gets in game, the easiesr it gets duue to the interaction of clarity glyphs and chalice. Its not unlimited, but it may as well be.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Mid's not gonna go down with just Sivir in many cases, which is the crux of the matter. Or, it will take so long that you'll get ganked.
BullFeces. I destroy mid tower before level 8, by myself, in 95% of my games. Its what Sivir does with this build. Of course, you dont run this build so I am not suprised you have difficulty.

Once you hit 6, just wait for your oponent to either go to town or switch lanes for a gank, wipe his creep wave, get to tower, drop rally, pop OTH, and the tower will die in seconds. More often then not I will have already done 1/3 to 1/2 of the towers health in damage from just pushing my creep wave into it and taking 2 or 3 pot shots at it while it mops up the creep wave.

There are a few champions who can keep you from doing it and if you get the **** ganked out of you repeatedly its obviously not going to go well. That being said though, it is TOTALLY doable. So much so that I have stated many times in this thread that it can be counted on. Only a champion with comparable push and AoE damage can have a hope of stopping you from doing this and even then they are most likely fighting a losing battle.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Karthus can wipe creeps indefinitely for very little mana, if he's timing lay waste properly. That's a non-starter argument.
Yes if left alone and properly built he can indeed do that. Put someone in the lane and it doesnt happen. Not that earlyanyways. Point being what we are realy talking about is countering Sivirs push. Karthus cant do it. Stand in the creep wave and spellshield as much as you can, the extra mana will feed your plentiful BB's and karthus will NOT be able to push you back. He just cant do it without defile that early in the game and if you manage to get a karthus defiling creep waves that early, hes gonna be OOM REAL fast and WILL lose the tower to you.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Ryze can do it at almost zero cost every cooldown of his ult.
That has nothing to do with what were talking about. Were talking about keeping creeps up against a tower, perma push, not being able to sporadically whipe out a wave. Next youll be telling me that Nunu can do it as well.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Nidalee should be harassing you out of the lane (at like level 3).
You have to be pretty dumb to be harassed out of lane by Nid that early. Well with my build anyways. Whats she going to do to you? Javelin is easily dodged or spellshielded so all she is left with is her auto attack and heal. That doesnt stack well against Sivir with def spec going BB first. Nidalees are dangerous when they get to 6, before that they are laughable and as Sivir you shouldnt have any problem with them. Even at 6 I get a pretty decent amount of kills on them as you can rely on them to engage you ASAP opnce they have cougar. Of course, the rally trick works wonders here as well. Doesnt kill as often as against other champions (she gets away with a pounce->human->heal) but she is then sent back or must play defensive while you eat the tower till shes has healed up.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Ashe can sustain Volleys ad infinitum with a Catalyst, or simply 1 Volley per creep wave for long enough for teleport to come up.
Lies. Volleyspam will make Ashe go OOM very quickly. JUST a catalyst wont help. Being more conservative with it fine catalyst can do, but you REALLY need damage on it before it is ANY good at quickly clearing creep waves. Again, it pales in comparison to Sivirs push.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Annie would get pushed, if she didn't succeed at a stunbear combo (guaranteed with any teammate interference).
Annie is one of the few champs its recommended to get a few more levels of spellshield early. You NEED to spellshield the stunbear. If you can do that spellshield + chalice MR will keepo your health up and as you said she will get pushed and most likely lose the tower (though generally they switch lanes for a gank before that and you get the tower anyways)

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Mord could defend all day.
Yes, hes one of the few champs who can counter Sivir pretty well in mid. He can stop your push dead. He has a lot of AoE and with his shield and enough HP regen, he can ignore your harass (both ricochet and BB). Its exceptinally annoying, I recommend asking for a lane switch or multiple ganks). Sivirs beware.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Trist would get pushed if she didn't kill you.
Yup and baiting her into trying and reversing it is covered very well earlier in the guide. Get the most kills on trist players.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Jax would probably kill you or harass you out of the lane.
Jax is very easy to deal with as Sivir. Depends on what type of jax what you do. AP Jax, standard build, possibly more spellshield (spellshielding leapstrike is HUGE) DPS jax you go with ricochet early (skillbuild: BB,Rico,Rico,SS,Rico, OTH....) and laugh as he struggles to maneuver around the creep wave not taking ricochet damage. Even standard build against jax works well though its harder and more dangerous.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Karth would get pushed but should be able to defend more or less forever. Kat would get pushed if she didn't harass you out at early levels.
Covered Karth, hes easy for Siv in mid. His push feeds you mana to strengthen your push.

Kat? SERIOUSLY? KAT! Oh please. Now your just pulling at straws.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Honestly I don't see it as a viable option probably 80% of the time to solo mid and drop the first tower without interference from other lanes.
Then perhaps you should start playing my build when you rock Sivir It really does happen. Yes you will have those games where you get epic ganked and theres just not a **** thing you can do about it, but if your playing well hell yes you should have that tower down and there are little if any excuses.


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Vijaya

Senior Member

03-29-2010

QUICKSLIDE, is there any chance of you compiling all of this information somewhere nice and easy so I can look over it later?

Or better yet, Mogri, could you add a "How to counter champions" to the actual guide?

I played a few games with this build a few nights ago, did pretty well. I played one game where I SSed Ashe's ult four times while we were still laning, but then the next game the Ashe knew how to counter me. She was baiting SSes then volleying once they were done, or she'd walk up to me and start auto-attacking. If I SSed and ran she'd let me go and farm, otherwise she'd pop her ult randomly so I wouldn't know when to SS it (point blank, so reaction time didn't matter either). I'd drop rally/OTH, but she still managed to get me down before I could get her. Honestly, I had no idea what to do in that situation.