Masteries Understood! Gold Pricing for most masteries...

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Dragonmount

Senior Member

05-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerdrage View Post
Your stance on archaic knowledge is a little short sighted. 15% MR pen is great. Why? It makes your flat penetration scale even better. Since the 15% is applied before the flat penetration, you make out like a bandit as they start to get MR.
Was under the impression that flat reduction is applied before % reduction. As in..

Abyssal scepter: -20 MR applied first
Void staff: %reduction applied second, so it's not as powerful due to abyssal.

So your statement would be backwards.. 15% MR pen is great, true. But your flat penetration is applied first, which diminishes the value of any percentage based reductions.


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ThaggleS

Senior Member

05-01-2011

The 5% max mana is glitched and only works on base mana, making it useless. To Andrew, who said Tenactiy is good. It stops 4 damage for every 100 damage done. Therefore, if you get hit by a 500 damage ability or ferocious auto attack, it will block 20 damage. Hardly seems worth it.


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Ribbones

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Senior Member

05-01-2011

What about the Armor Penetration from Sunder?
That seems like it'd hold quite a lot of worth. The only issue with it is picking compared to Archaic Knowledge.


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fernsauce

Senior Member

05-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonmount View Post
Was under the impression that flat reduction is applied before % reduction. As in..

Abyssal scepter: -20 MR applied first
Void staff: %reduction applied second, so it's not as powerful due to abyssal.

So your statement would be backwards.. 15% MR pen is great, true. But your flat penetration is applied first, which diminishes the value of any percentage based reductions.
Pretty sure that Void Staff is applied after the fact, like you pointed out, but the mastery % pen is applied first before anything else.


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kevbob

Junior Member

05-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nyce View Post
I disagree with a lot of your points here. Also just because you calculated a mastery to be worth more in gold than others, doesn't mean its good, vise versa with your low 'priced' masteries, doesn't mean those are bad. Interesting nonetheless. Another thing is you are way undervaluing the movespeed talent. 3 movespeed quints give you 4.5% movespeed, and those are over 6k IP total. Tell me that 3% is worthless now. You actually underestimate alot in the utility tree.
i understood the +3% applied to base movement only, whereas the +4.5% from Quints applied to buffed movespeed.

i could be completely wrong and would love to hear confirmation.


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Faceless Terror

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Senior Member

05-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaggleS View Post
The 5% max mana is glitched and only works on base mana, making it useless. To Andrew, who said Tenactiy is good. It stops 4 damage for every 100 damage done. Therefore, if you get hit by a 500 damage ability or ferocious auto attack, it will block 20 damage. Hardly seems worth it.
By that same logic, Havoc increases your damage by 5 per 100 damage. Therefore, if you hit someone with a 500 damage ability or ferocious auto attack, it will increase by 25 damage. Neither seem to compare to 15% CDR on summoner spells.


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RaginHomoSapien

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Recruiter

05-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaggleS View Post
The 5% max mana is glitched and only works on base mana, making it useless. To Andrew, who said Tenactiy is good. It stops 4 damage for every 100 damage done. Therefore, if you get hit by a 500 damage ability or ferocious auto attack, it will block 20 damage. Hardly seems worth it.
you are right but consider there are 5 enemy champions as well as minions. you can multiply that 20 damage by 5. It can block at least 100 damage in a team fight if not more.

On the other hand, offensive mastery gives you an increase in damage dealt against targets. Havoc is extremely useless when compared to tenacity and presence of the master.


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xQx

Member

05-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernsauce View Post
Pretty sure that Void Staff is applied after the fact, like you pointed out, but the mastery % pen is applied first before anything else.
No, because it's exactly the same kind of stat (% penetration) as the one on Void Staff; they even add up multiplicatively in the champ screen.


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xathil

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Senior Member

05-01-2011

I totally disagree with your gold calculations. Sure its a good start to evaluating the abilities but you miss out ENTIRELY a few HUGE factors.
1.Masteries are in a TREE and it takes points to get to specific masteries. Tenacity might be great for EVERYONE... but the bigger question is what about the 20 other points you have to allocate to GET THERE? a) Split them into tiers b) compare to masteries on the same tier - eg 0,4,... prereq points, etc.
2. Rarity of stat. Especially for buffs like quickness, greed, good hands, evasion, archaic knowledge... you know what these have in common? The buff is hard to find on items and passing it up in your masteries means you might not get access to it from anywhere else. There are no items in the game that reduce death time and while yes.. its a "****" stat (since you should be avoiding death at all times), but compared to preserverence which should be rated -1, 100% of the time, it should be taken if you are going to use the utility tree at all. On the other hand, buffs like quickness are VERY VERY important to some chars and are 3 for some and 1s for others. Sure.. sunder is a 3. But for ap carries its a 1. Not to mention... your values aren't even based off your own calculated gold values... Eg. expanded mind has a gold value (that you placed) on it of 7.6-31 but a rating of 1 which has an upper range higher than quickness (21-27) which you rate at 2. while defensive mastery (rated 2) goes from 20-110 which on average is higher than meditation (rated 3) at 60 gold. You compared gold values to try and define how good a mastery is, yet when you rank them its pretty arbitrary and is pretty similar to what everyone else does. Either follow your own standard or don't. Switching between your own and other people's just makes your work less convincing.
3. Gold value != worth. Sure. It may be WORTH alot of gold, but some stats are entirely worthless even if they have "good" gold value. Deadliness is entirely worthless unless you actually buy crit % items as a 2% crit chance by itself is entirely worthless. On the other hand if you start with brawlers gloves, since crit chance is additive, it's actually worth something.
4. Gold value of abilities.. You need to a) show your values b) calculate off standard items (highest base item values)- eg. regrowth pendant instead of regen bead. nlr instead of amp tome. cloak of agility instead of brawler's gloves. Void staff is 70 ap +40% mpen for 2295, NLR = 80ap/1600 = 20g/ap therefore voidstaff = 70*20 = 1400 gold for ap = 895 gold for 40% mpen = 335 gold for 15% mpen.


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AndrewAkk

Junior Member

05-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by xathil View Post
I totally disagree with your gold calculations.
Hi There!

I've update my OP to better explain some of the issue's you've listed, I'm also answering some previous confusion in the posts. Whilst I don't agree with you on these points (otherwise I'd disagree with myself :P), you make very good points, and primarily I'm answering your statements:
<please note I give more explanation in the FAQ>.

You underestimate the value of Quickness!

I have stated below the low value of Quickness directly relates to heroes without any in-built movement speed. For a slow-arsed Champion, it's bad

So quickness is only really valuable, as an offensive and escape mechanism for characters who have in-built movement speed enhancement.

You underestimate Awareness!

No I definitely don't! It's decent for utility junglers, and it's signifigantly better than Expanded Mind for *anybody*.

Archaic Knowledge is much better than you think!

That really depends... It's ineffective early game and doesn't scale well end game. BUT I did give it 375 gold....

Remember 375 GOLD!!!

Tenacity isn't the best ever.

It scales all game against ALL damage, shame it's 21 points in the tree...

Expanded Mind is glitched and only works on base mana

Believe it or not, Riot has stated it's working as intended before...

Some Masteries are worth more because they're hard to obtain

If it has a gold price it isn't hard to obtain. Also some things aren't worth trying to obtain.

Some of your skills have a high gold value, but aren't that good (like Crit)!

I base a stats value on the most valuable hero, so crit for Tryndamere, Dodge for Jax etc. If it is an item only found in later recipes, I figure it's worth the extra boos in price since it's hard to obtain.

You base your gold values off the wrong item!

I based my item values off of the cheapest values item in the game. This was because a Faerie Charm is exactly the same as three points in Meditation, this made me realize most of these abilities could be calculated as base items. Most of these abilities have very little gain in comparison to end-game items (since stats are cheaper end-game).

When I price Quickness low, that's in relation to Boots of Speed, which is in relation to an Amplifying tome, which is in relation to a Null Magic Mantle.



By the way, i think I'm going to re-evaluate Quickness, as I think I treated it unfairly (I'm going ot evaluate it based on MS heroes...)