Ashe - An Advanced Discussion

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Alexi

Senior Member

03-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornsoul View Post
Hmm maybe...READING MY post would be useful before posting a response to it? I stated that a previous build I used, I used to rush bloodrazor, in the build I presently use is it even mentioned that I rush it?

No its not.

Again bloodrazor is an underrated item. You say I should not be attacking tank first? I whole heartedly agree, but consider if a team has... Alistar,Jax,Sion,Fiddlesticks, Tristana. Which sounds like a reasonable team to run into.

4 of them are dependent on having high HP to be effective. A fiddlesticks with low HP will die very fast rendering his ult useless, he needs to stack HP so he can live when he uses it, usually via rod of ages. Sion of course will also stack HP due to his abilitys and also that most Sion players go AP anyway, Alistar is a given and Jax has his passive.

What COMMONLY happens in most team fights is maybe one person dies, and the goes back to a tower etc, you usually have someone with high HP bringing up the rear so no one dies. In these situations the bloodrazor ensures you get a second kill, not to mention that the damage of bloodrazor since it is % based is multipled by your attack speed, it is also magic damage meaning that most people dont even get armor for it.

Again as I stated the way I play Ashe may seem odd but I apparently have success with it. Late game when they tower rush and the tank goes in first, and I have razor,whisper,sotd. Yea ill sit there and shoot the tank, he will die in about 6-7 seconds and their team will sit there wondering WTF happened to their tank. They then at that point have no one to cover their retreat, at which one point one of the retreating champions will be tagged in the ass by a crystal arrow.

Lets take a look at roles here. Genrally in a game you a tank, a nuker, a support, 2 carrys of ranged/melee variety. Now support classes generally put everything they have into supporting their carry, Zilean will ult the carry, Kayle will ult the carry, Taric will heal the carry etc. No one worrys about the tank because its expected that the tank will take care of himself, be ignored, or have not enough damage to be a threat.

BUT! The tank is generally either starts the fights, or has some sort of annoying CC they will constantly spam. Malphite, Chogath, Alistar, Rammus, they all have some ******ed annoying ability that will devasate your team if you leave them unchecked, but they stack armor and HP so it becomes in your eyes a waste of time to kill them. With bloodrazor I can kill even a 5k hp Alistar with 300 armor in roughly the same amount of attacks I would kill a Fiddlesticks. If my team's comp is running physical heavy I am more prone to get Madreds/Sotd since it will be an entirely unexpect source of magic damage, if my team is magic damage heavy, then I will go IE,Dancer,Whisper,there is NOTHING more frustrating for a tank than being attacked constantly by a combonation of magic and physical damage, if forces them try to cover both bases. Towards the end of a long game against such Alistar, I would have razor,sotd,whisper,cleaver,boots,veil. be pushing 2.0+ attack speed esp if my team has a starks, doing in the ballpark of 600+ PER SECOND to their tank.

Ideally my strategy consists of dealing Aoe damage with massive volley spam, and taking pot shots at the tank until he initiates. Most teams, if they see their tanks HP dropping by huge chunks, will not stick around to find out why. Main thing is that while you may kill a caster or a carry faster than I can, I can kill anyone at about the same pace, it fills a niche on the team. Its not Ashe's job to kill the carry, that is your carry's job. This game is rock paper scissors, supports job is to help the carry stay alive, the carry's job is to kill the other teams carry, the tanks job is to stop carry from killing his carry. Following this train of thought.... knocking the ****ing **** out of their ***** tank, helps my carry a lot. He doesnt have to worry about being knocked up in the air, stunned, silenced, yank and ganked, getting put in a rock and hard place by malphite, getting his face eaten by chogath etc.

As another FURTHER note, this is a thread about Ashe, not an item selection discussion, its about STRATEGY with Ashe, not "omfg ur item buildz is the suck". Item builds are strictly...STRICTLY based on the team your playing against. I once played against an entirely magic dps team. I had to go philo stone, merc treads, banshee veil,wits end, aegis of legion. In order to stay alive without getting rocked. Did anyone on my team ***** at me for not raping their team with carry items? Hell no they didnt, because towards late game they could never kill me, and I still fufilled my support role of slowing their team down and setting up ganks. You have to get whatever items are needed in the match you are in. Debating trivial item selections is pointless. Did my items "suck" for a standard Ashe that game? Hell ya they did but guess what, I raped Ryze and Annie in the face with something Ashe has stashed in her secret night dresser drawer.
Again read the OP's question, it is about runes + items. Strategy I listed is based on why one build is better in higher ELO games than another. Please read. Again, getting razors first means you plan on making bloodrazors, if you aren't then my argument is valid how razors give you a lack of damage early on to do something compared to getting a BF Sword which eventually makes into an IE.

Countering Jax with bloodrazor does not help. Why? Dodge. Like I said you are better off with sword of the divine. Now if you had both that is even better. But you should never have blood razor first thinking you can counter Jax. You need sword of the divine then bloodrazor. For Fiddlesticks, he will have Banshees veil rather than RoA. And even then Fiddle tends to ult in rather than be there at a team fight at the beginning. Even if Fiddle was there, he is generally in back.

Again this is based on the assumption that the other team will not do anything and that you can take down a tank in 6-7 seconds unquestioned. The example you showed is just one situation. It could be that by taking down the tank, the opposing team took down 2 of your team's champions. Also, you can keep the tank in check by killing the other champions that are actually doing damage in a 5 man team fight. An example is if the team has a twitch. By the time the tank is down, twitch has already ulted half the team. And this works for teams without twitch as well.

Also, you are assuming that a game will last a long time. I play with the mindset of finishing the game early instead of hoping to have a lot of gold and buy a lot of these "super" items. And the logic doesn't work since how can you help your carry survive when you cannot help your carry and your team kill the carry that is trying to kill your carry. Again when you are in a team fight, ideally you would all target the top 2 champions on the opposing team that pose a threat to your team and attempt to kill them very quickly (~2 seconds). By killing the champions that do the most damage you are assuring that your carry will not die. Because it is not the tanks that are going to kill them, it is the opposing carry/dps champion that will. Tanks have CCs/stuns but they will not kill your carry if you kill the opposing champions that are doing the most damage to your team. Even if your carry eventually dies, you would have weaken their team.

It is important what items a person gets for a specific champion. Say under that logic, Fiddlesticks gets magic resist against a team with a lot of magic damage users. Sure it will work. However, you would do extremely better and be more helpful to the team if you have AP to shut down the opposing team. If you can kill them first then they can't kill you. Same with Ashe. The point being is that it is important to build Ashe so that she dominates a lane early on and that allows her to shut down opposing champions early on so that your team can win or that the opposing champions are underfed.

Note: It doesn't matter if you managed to kill Ryze or Annie with that build. There are a lot of variables such as: Was it 5v2? 5v1? 3v2? 3v1? Low health? Mid health? Did they have AP? Item build? Team composition? Summoner spells? Magic Pen? Duration of the game? Map positioning? Map awareness? Team work? ELO? Skill level?

I stated 4 items that are good to get on Ashe with the fourth item being variable (Whisper or Stark). I did this with the view that it depends on the opposing team. Meaning I am not saying that there is a set item build. However, I am advocating that players who play Ashe should get a specific item as their first item. As I pointed out before, I'm arguing that it is best to have IE + catalyst + boots (for me it is boots 3). This can be obtained pretty early in the game (pre-25 minute surrender time) if you are last hitting and not dying.

And this is about helping new players who are considering Ashe or other Ashe players that are not doing well to be better by showing them why specific items are not good and why other items are better.


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Tornsoul

Senior Member

03-08-2010

I am an aggresive laner but very conservative player for the most part, I will go in for ganks etc, not saying that I tower hug or that I am passive in a lane. But I would rather play mid, against the other teams carry, gold starve them, farm gold myself, force their carry to lane change, they have to send someone else mid, or they try to gank me but I have wards up etc. This causes the other team to become frustrated, I cannot count the number of times I have ended up with 2 people mid trying to push me onto my tower while they leave their Alistar solo in a side lane, hugging his tower because he is getting 2v1.

Some players favor an aggressive style of play, I prefer to make calculated and high profit low risk choices. Forcing my opponents to take risks, like goading people into tower diving to try to kill me, forcing multiple lane changes, foiling their ganks. My play style tends to lengthen games, if I play with my prem then a typical game is 35-45 minutes. As a solo que...well there are too many variables also considering attempting to force/convince people to create a valid team makes it difficult to make any assessments on that situation. A game I played a few days ago I ended up getting to level 18 when everyone else was 15 and by the end I had around 3000g more than the closest person under me.

Ashe is a glass cannon and should be played with the knowledge that you are fragile, but deadly when given the chance. People play aggressive champions like Shaco or Twitch. If you dont over push your lane, you have wards down, you attack twitch when he trys to creep "same with shaco" the game is over. They are both terrible at laning, easy to harrass, and they depend on you overextending and making a mistake in order for them to progress. As I stated before I typically go double philo stone, reg boots, then make IE.

Volley is cast by me, EVERY TIME it comes up. Every single time. I have enough regen through yellow runes and the 2 stones to do that. Is my autoattack dps low for the first 15~ minutes? Sure it is, but you sure as hell arent staying my lane, ill run you the hell out of dodge before you even get to pack your bags. I am one of those players that, once that first wave of minons get to mid, I will let you know this is MY lane. Which reminds me I have a friend that plays mundo, he always say GTFO of my bushes, when he plays side lanes, cleaver spam =D.

As for your note about my other game, there being a lot of variables...they had like morgana, veigar,annie,ryze and gangplank or something like that. Point is they would instagib people. Sometimes you have to play to avoid that and as for your ELO???? question. Please lets keep that epeen part out of this, I have close too +100 wins so I think that my ELO cannot be that terrible as winning that many times more than losing would likely move you up a few tiers I would imagine.

As for arguing going catalyst first, if you can manage to get it early I agree its nice, but I feel its more suited to a caster, I know that Ashe can use it for banshee but if your laning against someone with regen/lifesteal like a tristana or someone willing to trade hits with you "a crit plank" you will end up having to go back to down more than once I would assume before you get the 925g to actually create the catalyst. Your also still back at square 1 with not having any damage.

As for madreds... the only reason I quoted you was because you MISquoted me. As I never stated I rushed a razor.

As for Jax, yes razor rapes Jax, Jax becomes dangerous late game, at that point when there are not many towers around, his HP is pushing obscene 4 digit numbers and you dont have a tower to sit on. That is when he is a problem. At a game of the length that Jax gets to that godly state, there is no reason you shouldnt have both of those items by that point, most certainly if there is a Jax at the initial loading screen, you will have plenty of time to choose your item path, I would likely go 2x stone, reg boots, IE, finish boots, Madreds, Sotd.

As for killing the teams carry, of course that is priority 1. But most teams sit back as their tank waddles his fat rear up to your tower, giving you plenty of time to start shooting him, if their team runs up then switch to carry, if the tank becomes intimidated by your damage and starts running, his team will run also. Just arrow him and kill him then. Their team wont push without a tank and your arrow will be back up by the time he is ressed and back at the lane again anyway.

Again if you READ MY POST and my second post to which you quoted AGAIN. I never said razor is rushed. As for killing the tank I said to kill him as he is trying to initiate, unless its malphite, there is plenty of time to shoot him as he is running around at the front of his team, he isnt going to attack me he is going to try to get to the carry in the back. As for saying if fiddle gets magic resist because my team is magic heavy? READ MY GD POST, I know the letters are hard but I stated that if my team is magic heavy then I would get regular damage items. You want to create all these what if scenarios...


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Tornsoul

Senior Member

03-08-2010

@OP

If you want to get the razor and then phantom dancer first, I would highly recommend going with crit damage runes, as that will make up for the damage discrepency until you get your IE finished. I know its a different champion but I tend to rush madreds on warwick, around lvl 14-15 my tank will go tank Baron for me and ill dps him down due to bloodrazor.


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DevilishBlade

Member

03-08-2010

I read all this discussion & i ll give my humble opinion since i played over 600 games & won over 300 games with 100 from wins only using Ashe...
First of all, Ashe needs either attack speed or critical damage... & honestly, i don't recommend crits because to have a full build of crits, you need 25000 IP which is unaffordable for most of us.Therefore i go for attack speed, because Ashe without attack speed is usless...
About mana regeneration runes, i don't really accept because ashe is not a mana beast... She'll need only either catalyst or the most important item for Ashe: Banshee's veil...
Why catalyst then, Banshee's veil ?
The answer is simple: Ashe is vulnerable to a lot of heroes in one vs one, especially before level 6... She's vulnerable for a good TF... She's vulnerable to a good Katrina & vulnerable to a good Annie, because each of them can hurt her in his way... For example, if TF lands one gold card followed by wild cards, he reduces her health to half early game... & katrina's shunpo with the dagger, can also reduce her health a lot... No need to mention Annie, which can save her mana up to critical point by only last hitting the creeps with her 1st ability & just when time comes, she can harass Ashe easily...
So basically, you have to build with Ashe catalyst protector going first to ruby crystal then upgrade it to catalyst when u get money....
With catalyst , things differ... Because you can harass a lot with Volley, without need for approaching too much... & when you level up , 350 mana & health are restored... & when you complete the money of the veil , this is all the defensive & mana & health item that you really need...
The rest of the build can go only distributed between attack speed & attack damage...
Now , discussing why runes of attack speed...
If you complete the set of Alacrice ( seals, marks, glyphs & quintences of Alacrice) you get 38% attack speed... Imagine that... starting the game with 38% attack speed, you farm very fastly & very effectively...
Now, for the boots, you don't get swiftness boots, because honestly, if you need just to run to help , then better get mobility boots... But , about myself i pick up either berserker's greaves to raise my attack speed by 25% , or , if i m against a heavy casters team , it's recommended to get mercury's treads , to even be more safe , as the treads will reduce any spell duration to only 60% of if it's duration...
Now, about attack speed items... This is a matter of taste... You can go with either 1 or 2 attack speed items...
So , what are these items ?
Again, this is a matter of taste & situation...
Some would go to wit's end if there is a heavy magic team... But, i don't think this is proper because , even if you remove 42 mana each time from enemy , you sometimes face opponents that have too much mana (over 2.5 k mana) ... So with such opponent, you won't really annoy him this much because also , the damage isn't this much...
So , wit's end is out of my list...
Also , you can buy last whisper, especially that it's so useful against tanks to have 40% armor penetration... But , let me point to something important for people who didn't read infos well... Armor penetration caps at 40%!!!!!.... I.e., you can't penetrate more than 40% of armor... So that's why basically getting armor penetration is a waste of time , especially if u're going to buy last whisper...
Also , if there is no significant tanks in another team, armor penetration items would be useless...
So , the optimum choices will lie between Phantom Dancer, Madred's Bloodrazor, sword of the divine & finally malady...
About malady, i don't recommend it this much... I recommend the damage more than it's life stealing property... & then , you can get life stealing from BloodThirster....
The most recommended item will be Phantom dancer... Because phantom dancer gives everything for a dps... 45% attack speed, 30% crit, & 2 extremely important attributes : the 12 % movement speed & 20% dodge chance... the 12% is not really to be underestimated... Especially that Ashe isn't this fast...
So , you must get a PD... & either go with another attack speed item , then 2 damage items which must be infinity edge & blood thirster... Or go with 3 damage items with a third of your choice depending on your survivability (i.e. If your death rate is high... You better go infinity , because you won't have enough time to cap bloodthirster each time to each maximum)...
So , here goes the build of Ashe:
1-Banshee's veil (must)
2-Berserker's greaves (usual) (or mercury's treads or mobility boots against a casters team or for quick assists respectively)
3-Phantom Dancer.
4- A.S.: (Madred's Bloodrazor or Sword of the divine or another PD) or (Last Whisper only if the other team has many tanks)
or
A.D.: Infinity Edge or (bloodthirster if you have time to cap it to the max) or (black cleaver if the other team has many tanks which also goes well with last whisper)
5- Infinity edge
6- Bloodthirster....

P.S.: If you go with berserker's greaves + 2 attack speed items with ashe (phantom dancer & sword of the divine for example): ur total attack speed is: 38% A.S. from runes + 25% from berserker's + 45% from PD + 55 % from sword of the divine = 163% A.S. which will make your attack speed around 2.2 ... & Ashe is turned into a machine gun... Or , you can remove a bit of speed , caping at around 1.8 but instead get more damage via bloodthirster or infinity...
No need to say that , in terms of cost, 2 infinity edges are 2 much to get... So , most of the time u ll go sword of the divine instead ...
& i tested this build with Ashe, & rarely lost with it... & lost never came from my side... Probably only if the team members are noobs , or the teamwork fails....

I apologize for the long thread...
I only wanted to give people good advise on Ashe...

P.S. : for summoner abilities, ignite is really helpful to get as first kill... Probably clarity is useful also for Ashe... Teleport.Flash, Cleanse & Clairwoyance are Globally useful for all users... So summoner spells for Ashe are a matter of taste....No recommendation, although i use ignite & teleport most of the time


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TrrZ

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Senior Member

03-08-2010

2 helldragon
what ... the ... heck ... with ... all ... those ... dots?

dots show that u aren't sure in what u re saying

Quote:
As for Jax, yes razor rapes Jax
jax rapes ashe that is shooting him. if enemy has jax, u need swod of the divine. madreds are also good but jax likes being shot. it procs his stun


also
Quote:
greaves
fail
Quote:
boots of swiftness
fail

pd - trash pile as well, uless it's a 5-6th item

my ashe build is heavy enemy team dependant. if they are tanky, i rush madreds, ignoring manaregen sometimes. if they have annoing caster (ryze, karth, annie) i go for early veil (after ie). usually though i go for dorans ring (those 10 ap win games), ie, last whisper/starks/sod, veil. exliring after lw/recurve bow

if the enemy has a lot of dps i go for lifesteal build - ie-starks-malady-bt. there is a chance to outheal incoming damage or just go to the woods to get full health from the first creep camp

Quote:
which will make your attack speed around 2.2 ... & Ashe is turned into a machine gun... Or , you can remove a bit of speed , caping at around 1.8 but instead get more damage via bloodthirster or infinity...
ashe's atack speed is capped by frost shot projectile speed. u cant have more than 1 projectile flying simultaneously so at 600 range with frost shot ashe's atack speed would be 1.7 (it's calculated by someone else but it sounds reasonable)


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Azelf

Senior Member

03-08-2010

I also want to point out that there's no hard cap on armor penetration. But then, the only item that gives percentage armor pen is last whisper, so it's really just there.

One more thing, last whisper reduce armor of towers. Towers have around 50~60 armor, -40% is -20~25 armor, plus another 16 armor pen from runes and +80 dam from IE, I can take out a tower in less than 30s and run back in no time (provided my team mates create enough distraction).


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TrrZ

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Senior Member

03-08-2010

Quote:
Armor penetration caps at 40%!!!!!.... I.e., you can't penetrate more than 40% of armor...
not true. it might be a misunderstanding of how black cleaver has no synergy with last whisper


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WhitemageofDOOM

Senior Member

03-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtysprocket View Post
So on with #2. My current build is this:

Greaves/Phantom/Bloodthirster/Brutalizer/Infinity/Bloodrazor
Edit:Here is the sequence:

Regular boots (also some consumables to start the game with)
Greaves
Vamp Scepter
Small Razors(for the minion damage proc, go go dragon farming)
Zeal
Phantom(Sometimes Brut before Phantom)
Brut
Bloodthirster
Infinity
Bloodrazor

Is this, in general the optimal build? I will sub out Brut for Last Whisper if their team is especially tanky, but even then I donít see much difference.

Please discuss below. Thanks for reading and participating.
That's a terrible build for ashe.
While Ashe is a pretty reasonable character, she is not a champion who should focus on the deeps, ashe's best use is to spam volley.

Chalice
Mercury Treads
Brutalizer
Last Whisper or Banshees veil

Is a much stronger ashe build.


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flat eric

Member

03-09-2010

You don't need a banshee's if you're not getting focused on, I can't stand seeing Ashe's on my team get this first when you don't need it. By investing in defense when you don't need it, you farm slower early and mid game then farm even slower for lategame. At that point the defense doesn't even matter because you don't do anything but tickle.

And not to be a ****, but phil stone isn't the best way to go if you're playing her right. She's a lot like TF in a way, positioning and moving to avoid damage to being with is a critical skill. A chalice is cheaper, gives more mana, and has a little MR to boot. I won't lie though, I used to use phil stone a lot so I can see it's appeal.

One thing that blows my mind and should almost never be debated in Ashe threads is that fact that your first two items after your chalice or phil-stone need to be an Infinity edge and Bloodthurster in whatever order suits the situation. Infinity is 80 damage, and capped out a Bloodthurster is 100. At that point you're throwing vollies doing 200-300 damage. This is going to break stalemates at towers extremely fast, smash people in team fights, and help you farm out the rest of your items like your P.Dancer (x2 even), Bloodrazor, Cleaver, or Banshee's Veil. If you don't believe me, seriously try it out for yourself.


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LoL is too buggy

Member

03-09-2010

Ashe's volley directly scales with AD. Therefore, when you get damage items you increase your DPS far more than if you get AS. This is exaggerated by the fact that you cannot volley and attack at the same time. Therefore, if you go AS you deal less damage with volley, and when you use it you are decreasing your DPS even more!!

Never build AS Ashe. Ever. Some AS items are necessary in certain (most) games though (LW and/or MBR). MBR is great because it will give you magic damage you otherwise won't have (outside of your ult). That being said, you want to maximize your damage.

The best way to do this is to get IE + BTs (as many as you have room for). Bloodthirsters literally give you more damage than any other item in the game, and they also give you boss lifesteal. Even if you die you can farm in the jungle + a few creep waves to build your stacks back up relatively quickly. If you can't farm NPCs somehow then you're probably already in a losing game.



How do you afford this gear? Maximize bounty...

..after ult and volley. You only need rank 1 slow to get the job done, so get the last 3-4 lvls right as you're hitting 18. Your job is to make money. Most of the time I'll get philo ASAP (before boots), tele back to lane, then not leave until I can get a BFS (still no boots). Harass with volley, last hit, and farm the ghosts behind you whenever they pop. You'll make money very fast. As soon as you come back with your BFS you'll farm twice as fast.

I also spec 9/0/21 and carry tele/ghost. Tele allows me to keep lane presence and/or ult gank, while ghost allows me to escape a gank, or chase an opponent for a KB since I get boots late. Speccing utility gets me 9% CDR with some mana regen as well, plus I can ghost/tele more frequently, as well as +xp and g/10, oh yeah, the move speed from utility too....that's a biggy.

Anyway, that's just my playstyle and my theory. When your BTs get maxed your volley hits like a truck, and so do you.

ps, I never get PD on Ashe. Ever.