Ashe - An Advanced Discussion

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Tornsoul

Senior Member

03-06-2010

I have around 100 games on ashe with an almost 70% win ratio when playing her. I also have 80+ wins on my win/lose ratio.

I have played Ashe many ways, one build I previously used was atk sword and a heal pot to start, getting a razor as soon as I had the gold, this allows you to autoattack push your lane, as you instagib minions "its esp good if you are vsing a heimer because razor procs on his turrets" it definately helps your income and gives you a lot more pushing power as you can save your volleys for hitting the enemy champion every time. The problem I ended up having is that champions that ignore getting gold and make an effort to harrass you above all else "nidalee,gangplank,teemo,tristana" you dont really have any way to sustain your HP early by building this way so I have hence stopped using that build.

Presently what I have been doing "no im not a noob or ******ed" is getting two philo stones when I am soloing mid. Now this might seem quite odd or stupid but it does two things for you. Firstly you never have to leave the lane once you get the second one, you can cast volley ALMOST as often as it coolsdown so pretty close to nonstop. This frees up your golem for someone else on your team, lets you push mid lane very hard due to killing everything with volley spam, you acquire a very large amount of gold and the enemy champion cannot fight you. When they are being hit with volleys every 7~ seconds even if its just for 100ish damage they add up plus you are always free to autoattack them if they insist on trying to get creep kills. You are free to ult the champion and attempt to gank them if they stayed in the lane after all your harrassment, or send it to another lane if needed there. Your MP5 ensures you dont have to wait long for the mana once its almost up.

If the opposing team has any stealth I will get a ward for top and bottom bush, most shaco/eve etc will not have stealth up prior to getting to the bush so they have max time on it when they come out of the bush.

As for the comments on madreds bloodrazor, I think its a item that is useful if they have many heros that get high hp or someone is stacking HP. Once you have bloodrazor you kill certain people in X amount of attacks, regardless of how high their HP is, I would also like to note that the bloodrazor rapes baron nashor, allowing your team to kill him very early. But its a very expensive item so yes I do use it but it depends on the other teams makeup.

Typically after 2 philo stones I will get regular boots then atma's impaler, warmoggs and force of nature.
Actually thats a joke -_-, after the stones depending on their makeup I will get veil if they have a large amount of magic damage, if they have pretty balanced damage types then I will make a thirster or IE. I feel that Ashes best ability is volley "granted its her only ability really" but being able to use it nonstop is essential as the more AD you have the better volley is, but the ability is quite ******ed in team fights, it prevents the other team from chasing you if you are retreating as you can just spam it, or if they are hugging a tower and your throwing 200+ dmg volleys in there nonstop, they eventually will need to leave the tower.

Some may find the way I play Ashe odd as I generally dont play her as a straight carry, but i find maxmizing your ability to spam volley, with a moderate amount of damage and to aim your ult well, will win more fights than anything else.

Typically on a general match I will get 2 philo, boots "whatever type is best", and then use any of the following... IE/Thirster,Dancer,madreds bloodrazor,banshee veil,last whisper,wits end,Sword of the Divine. As a note I would like to add that most people look at bloodrazor and see 30 damage and think its useless, but I feel that stacking attack speed with it makes the item "******ed".

3k HP Alistar "dont recall if madreds is 3 or 4% atm" but at 4% that is 120 magic damage per attack pre resists, but you also would have to add in your autoattack damage. Again ideally, if you want to use bloodrazor, you NEED to stack attack speed, if you want to use IE then you have to have a phantom dancer and damage items.


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ScrewtapeGG

Senior Member

03-06-2010

I'd like to post a bit of a summery so far.

Quote:
My runes are Atk speed for red and yellow. -cd for blue and +exp for quints.

My first Item is either meki+2hp pots or regen, I then turn to Philo. I belive that nothing beats a philo. It has all the hp/mp rgen you will ever need and gives you gold to boot.

Beserkers. then Bf. Malady. Bf> IF. After that I build according to enemy team.
This looks like the "machine gun" build for Teemo or Twitch. The reason to build this way, in particular to Twitch, is for the stacking poisons.

This build is good, and depending on playstyle it could be best (black cleaver needs to be in there IMO.

Quote:
Something I would like to add is early game harassment. I always start out the gate with Doran's Shield and a health pot
I also harrass with Volley. It is a Great early harrass skill. I can usually keep a champion in mid lane at half health. Going Doran's Shield would be ok, but definately not optimal.

Quote:
Doran's Blade and hp pot, pretty much guarantee an early kill.

then
Pickaxe
B. F. Sword
boot
Vampiric Scepter

then either
Black Cleaver first or another B. F. Sword
Boots of Swiftness
Infinity Edge
Stark's Fervor
Bloodthirster
then usually an hp or defence item or phantom depends on situation.
Again, much like the previous post, this is not a bad build.

This build does do one thing very nice. It hits hard, but slow (no phantom or greaves). This would be the other side of the coin from the "machine gun build" listed above. IMO both are good but not optimal. Ashe requires a middle ground.

Also, having 2 lifesteal items is fine, but I would suggest a non item dependant hero get Starks Fervor. Usually a support class like Taric/Nasus or even Sivir.


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ScrewtapeGG

Senior Member

03-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexi View Post
Zeal/Phantom. Again, you want attack damage first because low damage + attack speed = low damage output.
There are a lot of things I disagree with in your post. However let me just tackle this one sentence. Unless you're at a low elo, Ashe is not a main dps class. That honor would go to Jax/Corki/Sivir/or even Cardmaster. Ashe comes in somewhere fifth or sixth.

My point is, your role centers around slowing champions and using your arrow to best disable in group fights. The higher attack speed fills your role better.

I would point to Tornsoul's post above. He has a solid grasp on his hero's strengths and weaknesses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexi View Post
Doran's Shield, Catalyst (which becomes banshees), Infinity, Boots 3, Whisper/Stark
I like how you criticize my build because of the AS that you say needs to be AD. Your build has very little AD. Last whisper is +20 and your only other addition is IE.


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Alexi

Senior Member

03-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtysprocket View Post
There are a lot of things I disagree with in your post. However let me just tackle this one sentence. Unless you're at a low elo, Ashe is not a main dps class. That honor would go to Jax/Corki/Sivir/or even Cardmaster. Ashe comes in somewhere fifth or sixth.

My point is, your role centers around slowing champions and using your arrow to best disable in group fights. The higher attack speed fills your role better.

I would point to Tornsoul's post above. He has a solid grasp on his hero's strengths and weaknesses.




I like how you criticize my build because of the AS that you say needs to be AD. Your build has very little AD. Last whisper is +20 and your only other addition is IE.
Well I guess first off you should read my post. I stated 4 items, not 6. Secondly, games don't last 50+ minutes, my average game is 25-35 minutes. So you have to consider how much gold everyone else would have. This means that I do not have to buy that many items before the game is over. And whisper is used for armor pen that is why I put whisper/starks. Starks is a team item, which shows that I did not see Ashe as a high dps champion, she is more like Sivir. Again I never said Ashe is a main dps class but that doesn't mean you should have low damage. First of all, AS does not help you slow people better.

"Toggle: Ashe's basic attacks slow her target's movement speed by 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35% for 2 seconds.

Mana Cost: 8 Mana per Attack" -Leaguecraft

More AS means you will hit more per shot meaning more mana wasted plus the slow last for 2 seconds. If the person uses cleanse then just volley, there is no need for more attack speed to slow. Your slow last for 2 seconds to begin with.

Also, it is NOT very little AD. Like I said you are doubling your damage on Ashe at an early stage of the game by having IE early. That is more than rushing AS early.

Note: Ever since the patch, Ashe's arrow only stuns one person.
Meaning your role is to disable and shut down the opposing team's deadliest champion. Secondly, even if you only do 30% of the damage to an opposing champion that is still helping you team. This is not low elo, in fact you go to solomid.net and check out a recent livestream by Dan Dinh (a high elo player). Dan Dinh's build is similar to what I said in the previous post (with one exception and that is the boots).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornsoul View Post
As for the comments on madreds bloodrazor, I think its a item that is useful if they have many heros that get high hp or someone is stacking HP. Once you have bloodrazor you kill certain people in X amount of attacks, regardless of how high their HP is, I would also like to note that the bloodrazor rapes baron nashor, allowing your team to kill him very early. But its a very expensive item so yes I do use it but it depends on the other teams makeup.
It does help with people with high hp but if you rush bloodrazor it is not good compared to other items like IE. Since it is early into the game that people will not have high hp except tanks. And you shouldn't be attacking tanks anyhow in the first place. Also, this is not a good counter against Jax since dodge = GG, you are better off with Sword of the Divine. That is why I am against getting razors early, even though you kill minions you can't do anything to champions early on. At the same time you can easily last hit and kill minions easily with one or two damage items. Also, it is true you can take out minions faster allowing you to push but that doesn't mean the opposing champion will let you or that you won't get ganked. At that point your damage is pretty low. Plus, even though you can push it depends how many minions are pushing with you.


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

03-07-2010

I have to agree with Torn (with almost 100 games on Ashe and a 50/35 ratio).

Ashe is not a "primary physical carry". Tristana and Corki fill that role for ranged, and Jax/Yi/Warwick/Udyr usually fit in there for melee.

Ashe (and Teemo) find their dps role secondary due to a lack of damage amplifying skills. Ashe has Volley plus her passive. Teemo has his poison. That's it. That doesn't mean they can't do good damage - it simply means that they are at least a step behind other champions. If you build Ashe and Tristana exactly the same, Tristana will win EVERY 1v1 fight.

So the question is how to build Ashe so that her damage output is a threat, yet her support options are capitalized on.

Two direct needs: mana regen and flat +damage. Why? You need mana regen to crank out those volleys and push lanes FAST lategame (when you have a 4 second volley). And you need +damage to capitalize on your nearly-guaranteed auto-crit first hit as well as volley damage.

Infinity Edge and a Bloodthirster are almost automatic choices due to the latter. And like the OP, I run very heavy mana regen in my runes while leaving -cooldown to gear. And cooldown IS quite important for Ashe.
Obviously, your favorite boots get the third item slot, but what about the other 3? Well, Ashe needs a little survivability, plus that mana regen and cooldown... Hey look! Soul Shroud. This is actually what I always get as Ashe for that role - not a philosopher stone. 15% cooldown means a Nashor's Tooth or Frozen Heart gives maxed cooldown, while earlier, a Golem buff nets you -30%. And your team gets mana regen and cooldown, and you get hp!
So, next item is also survival oriented, based on the enemy team. Frozen Heart if they are physical heavy. Banshees Veil if they are magic. And Aegis if they are balanced (again, leaning in as a support). If a teammate already has the Aegis, then I'll usually just get Mercury Treads and grab a Chain Vest to upgrade later to Sunfire or Atma's.

So far, item list is:
Boots
Soul Shroud
Infinity Edge
Bloodthirster
Frozen Heart/Banshee's Veil/Aegis/etc

Big downside right now is in attack speed, so we add in Phantom Dancer for the last item.

My usual gameplay and item order:

  • Boots + 2 health potions
  • Pick up 2x Faerie Charm as soon as you have 360 gold, and teleport right back to the tower (I always have teleport as Ashe). I don't bother waiting the extra 115 for a manipulator, as the 1.2/5 isn't needed, and I don't spend much time close enough to anyone else to benefit from it.
  • Farm away as long as you can, between your runes and the 2 charms you'll be able to pop volley enough to keep them from farming creeps, with only a few champion exceptions. Your next trip home should be as soon as you have teleport up again and 1850 gold. If you got that much before teleport came up, you're kicking ass, and can start on upgrading your boots and manipulator. If not, just grab the BF Sword and teleport back in now that you've amped your damage. This should be around the level 6-8 mark, and you should be moving out to help gank if you see the top or bottom lane's enemies pushing too far, or if you get a gank mid and are free to harass/push another lane.
  • Along with making sure to get the manipulator and upgraded boots, I always focus on getting Zeal next. It has a nice mix of stats on it for only 1195 gold. And after that, it's gung-ho Infinity Edge, then Soul Shroud.
  • At which point you're toting +80 damage, +30% crit, upgraded boots, 20% attack speed, 8% movement, -15% cooldown, 12/5 mana, and +520 hp. Considering Ashe tops out around 1800 hp at 18, the 520 extra is huge for boosting her survival. Next item is starting my defense item - either Chain Vest or Negatron Cloak or Ruby Crystal depending which item I'm planning.
  • Finally, I go for the Bloodthirster before completing my defense item.

Generally what this provides is a strong laning phase via the mana regen, and then as soon as team fighting begins you should be picking up your +dmg so that you're a threat. And once you establish that the enemy needs to shoot you unless they enjoy having a volley shoved unto them every 3.5 seconds, they need to shoot you. At which point you're already packing some extra survival, before continuing to build further threat.

My ideal endbuild is with the Frozen Heart, so that I'm sporting +500 mana, +520 hp, 12/5 regen plus runes, -40% cooldown, 99 armor, 30 MR (mercury treads), +180 dmg, +45% attack speed, +12% movement, and +50% crit.


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Zero47

Senior Member

03-07-2010

I just love how everyone thinks that posting their stats givers their argument any validity whatsoever.


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GamBino826

Senior Member

03-07-2010

To be honest, Ashe is one of the easier heroes to use out there. There's pretty much a "set formula" for everything and really, only Crystal Arrow requires any creativity. There really isn't much deviation item builds, because Ashe will be a DPS support champ anyways.

Or of course, one could make an AP Ashe with max cooldown reduction and Golem buff and spam Enchanted Arrows as often as humanely possible.


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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-07-2010

I agree with 100% of what OP said until item build. IE is the best item Ashe can get for DPS and burst damage. Boots of Speed help her chase (with her snare) and escape. You don't need AS until after IE is complete then get a bow > Last Whisper/Wit's End/Sword of the Divine depending on opponents. Why?

If you rush the Pickaxe + BFW + cape, your stun + one volley + (auto) crit should be enough to make any champ turn and run or just die. You don't need repeated auto-attacks to get kills/assists/map control until the champs have a lot more hp. Even then, I rarely stand in one place with Ashe and auto-attack. I'm usually yo-yo'ing up and down the lanes last hitting and throwing volley to harrass and snare until we can initiate.

Lastly, I think the higher you go in ELO, the less likely you are to make Bloodthirster a good investment. It just doesn't get/keep the stacks by endgame when you really need to have every advantage over your opponent. With Ashe's ult, I usually get more assists than kills anyway. You'd be better off with sword of the occult as a snowball item IMHO.


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ScrewtapeGG

Senior Member

03-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoSponge View Post
I agree with 100% of what OP said until item build. IE is the best item Ashe can get for DPS and burst damage. Boots of Speed help her chase (with her snare) and escape. You don't need AS until after IE is complete then get a bow > Last Whisper/Wit's End/Sword of the Divine depending on opponents. Why?

If you rush the Pickaxe + BFW + cape, your stun + one volley + (auto) crit should be enough to make any champ turn and run or just die. You don't need repeated auto-attacks to get kills/assists/map control until the champs have a lot more hp. Even then, I rarely stand in one place with Ashe and auto-attack. I'm usually yo-yo'ing up and down the lanes last hitting and throwing volley to harrass and snare until we can initiate.

Lastly, I think the higher you go in ELO, the less likely you are to make Bloodthirster a good investment. It just doesn't get/keep the stacks by endgame when you really need to have every advantage over your opponent. With Ashe's ult, I usually get more assists than kills anyway. You'd be better off with sword of the occult as a snowball item IMHO.
Good post, TY for contributing.


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Tornsoul

Senior Member

03-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexi View Post
Well I guess first off you should read my post. I stated 4 items, not 6. Secondly, games don't last 50+ minutes, my average game is 25-35 minutes. So you have to consider how much gold everyone else would have. This means that I do not have to buy that many items before the game is over. And whisper is used for armor pen that is why I put whisper/starks. Starks is a team item, which shows that I did not see Ashe as a high dps champion, she is more like Sivir. Again I never said Ashe is a main dps class but that doesn't mean you should have low damage. First of all, AS does not help you slow people better.

"Toggle: Ashe's basic attacks slow her target's movement speed by 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35% for 2 seconds.

Mana Cost: 8 Mana per Attack" -Leaguecraft

More AS means you will hit more per shot meaning more mana wasted plus the slow last for 2 seconds. If the person uses cleanse then just volley, there is no need for more attack speed to slow. Your slow last for 2 seconds to begin with.

Also, it is NOT very little AD. Like I said you are doubling your damage on Ashe at an early stage of the game by having IE early. That is more than rushing AS early.

Note: Ever since the patch, Ashe's arrow only stuns one person.
Meaning your role is to disable and shut down the opposing team's deadliest champion. Secondly, even if you only do 30% of the damage to an opposing champion that is still helping you team. This is not low elo, in fact you go to solomid.net and check out a recent livestream by Dan Dinh (a high elo player). Dan Dinh's build is similar to what I said in the previous post (with one exception and that is the boots).




It does help with people with high hp but if you rush bloodrazor it is not good compared to other items like IE. Since it is early into the game that people will not have high hp except tanks. And you shouldn't be attacking tanks anyhow in the first place. Also, this is not a good counter against Jax since dodge = GG, you are better off with Sword of the Divine. That is why I am against getting razors early, even though you kill minions you can't do anything to champions early on. At the same time you can easily last hit and kill minions easily with one or two damage items. Also, it is true you can take out minions faster allowing you to push but that doesn't mean the opposing champion will let you or that you won't get ganked. At that point your damage is pretty low. Plus, even though you can push it depends how many minions are pushing with you.

Hmm maybe...READING MY post would be useful before posting a response to it? I stated that a previous build I used, I used to rush bloodrazor, in the build I presently use is it even mentioned that I rush it?

No its not.

Again bloodrazor is an underrated item. You say I should not be attacking tank first? I whole heartedly agree, but consider if a team has... Alistar,Jax,Sion,Fiddlesticks, Tristana. Which sounds like a reasonable team to run into.

4 of them are dependent on having high HP to be effective. A fiddlesticks with low HP will die very fast rendering his ult useless, he needs to stack HP so he can live when he uses it, usually via rod of ages. Sion of course will also stack HP due to his abilitys and also that most Sion players go AP anyway, Alistar is a given and Jax has his passive.

What COMMONLY happens in most team fights is maybe one person dies, and the goes back to a tower etc, you usually have someone with high HP bringing up the rear so no one dies. In these situations the bloodrazor ensures you get a second kill, not to mention that the damage of bloodrazor since it is % based is multipled by your attack speed, it is also magic damage meaning that most people dont even get armor for it.

Again as I stated the way I play Ashe may seem odd but I apparently have success with it. Late game when they tower rush and the tank goes in first, and I have razor,whisper,sotd. Yea ill sit there and shoot the tank, he will die in about 6-7 seconds and their team will sit there wondering WTF happened to their tank. They then at that point have no one to cover their retreat, at which one point one of the retreating champions will be tagged in the ass by a crystal arrow.

Lets take a look at roles here. Genrally in a game you a tank, a nuker, a support, 2 carrys of ranged/melee variety. Now support classes generally put everything they have into supporting their carry, Zilean will ult the carry, Kayle will ult the carry, Taric will heal the carry etc. No one worrys about the tank because its expected that the tank will take care of himself, be ignored, or have not enough damage to be a threat.

BUT! The tank is generally either starts the fights, or has some sort of annoying CC they will constantly spam. Malphite, Chogath, Alistar, Rammus, they all have some ******ed annoying ability that will devasate your team if you leave them unchecked, but they stack armor and HP so it becomes in your eyes a waste of time to kill them. With bloodrazor I can kill even a 5k hp Alistar with 300 armor in roughly the same amount of attacks I would kill a Fiddlesticks. If my team's comp is running physical heavy I am more prone to get Madreds/Sotd since it will be an entirely unexpect source of magic damage, if my team is magic damage heavy, then I will go IE,Dancer,Whisper,there is NOTHING more frustrating for a tank than being attacked constantly by a combonation of magic and physical damage, if forces them try to cover both bases. Towards the end of a long game against such Alistar, I would have razor,sotd,whisper,cleaver,boots,veil. be pushing 2.0+ attack speed esp if my team has a starks, doing in the ballpark of 600+ PER SECOND to their tank.

Ideally my strategy consists of dealing Aoe damage with massive volley spam, and taking pot shots at the tank until he initiates. Most teams, if they see their tanks HP dropping by huge chunks, will not stick around to find out why. Main thing is that while you may kill a caster or a carry faster than I can, I can kill anyone at about the same pace, it fills a niche on the team. Its not Ashe's job to kill the carry, that is your carry's job. This game is rock paper scissors, supports job is to help the carry stay alive, the carry's job is to kill the other teams carry, the tanks job is to stop carry from killing his carry. Following this train of thought.... knocking the ****ing **** out of their ***** tank, helps my carry a lot. He doesnt have to worry about being knocked up in the air, stunned, silenced, yank and ganked, getting put in a rock and hard place by malphite, getting his face eaten by chogath etc.

As another FURTHER note, this is a thread about Ashe, not an item selection discussion, its about STRATEGY with Ashe, not "omfg ur item buildz is the suck". Item builds are strictly...STRICTLY based on the team your playing against. I once played against an entirely magic dps team. I had to go philo stone, merc treads, banshee veil,wits end, aegis of legion. In order to stay alive without getting rocked. Did anyone on my team ***** at me for not raping their team with carry items? Hell no they didnt, because towards late game they could never kill me, and I still fufilled my support role of slowing their team down and setting up ganks. You have to get whatever items are needed in the match you are in. Debating trivial item selections is pointless. Did my items "suck" for a standard Ashe that game? Hell ya they did but guess what, I raped Ryze and Annie in the face with something Ashe has stashed in her secret night dresser drawer.