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Ashe - An Advanced Discussion

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ScrewtapeGG

Senior Member

03-06-2010

Ashe - An Advanced Discussion

Edit: Thought I might add that I currently have 200+ wins total and my current record with Ashe is 50-24.

First, let me point out that imo Ashe is a solid hero that outrivals most, but currently should not be grouped in the top 10 champions with regards to AT/Tourney play. As I see the game, Ashe resides in the second 10. In solo-queue, however, Ashe is much more powerful than AT or Tourney play. And actually might be a top ten pick. This is debatable.

Now that you see my viewpoint and bias towards Ashe, or lack thereof, let me get to the point. I wanted to discuss a couple of finer points when spec’ing Ashe. Two things in particular and I would welcome others as this discussion progresses.

#1. Rune page. I have an alternate rune page choice that I believe is optimal.
#2. Item build. Specifically if Bloodrazor is optimal.
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So on with #1. I have been testing this rune page setup and have come to the conclusion that I like it best.

-Marks & Quints -> Armor Pen…comes to 29
-Seal & Glyphs -> Scaling Mana Regen…comes to 28@lvl18 per 5

As for the ArmorPen, I doubt that will turn many heads. My own testing has proven to me that it is the better choice. (As opposed to crit chance or crit damage) Late game, perhaps crit damage is superior, but only after a complete build including Phantom and Infinity. Where most games are under 45 mins, I believe APen is the better choice.

As for the Mana Regen. I hear the screams of noob already. But let me explain. With my runes set up this way, I have no need for Chalice. This opens up an extra slot in my inventory, AND allows me to accelerate my damage build. Additionally, late game I feel more complete and damage output is more along the lines of Jax. (not quite, but close) Also note that never do I feel mana starved, and I’m usually one to spam Volley.

Please discuss below. Hopefully, I’m not the only one doing this.
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So on with #2. My current build is this:

Greaves/Phantom/Bloodthirster/Brutalizer/Infinity/Bloodrazor
Edit:Here is the sequence:

Regular boots (also some consumables to start the game with)
Greaves
Vamp Scepter
Small Razors(for the minion damage proc, go go dragon farming)
Zeal
Phantom(Sometimes Brut before Phantom)
Brut
Bloodthirster
Infinity
Bloodrazor

Is this, in general the optimal build? I will sub out Brut for Last Whisper if their team is especially tanky, but even then I don’t see much difference.

Please discuss below. Thanks for reading and participating.


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Elandel

Junior Member

03-06-2010

(I play EU now so please do not call my noob by searching for this name on US servers)

I've played 150+ games with Ashe and at first learnt by copying builds from guides. The build I used was then refined them until I found the best build (for me).

I was very surprised when I read your post and found your build to be almost the same as mine. I'm a strong believer in mana regen runes too; by using them you do not need a chalice or meki pendant and so have a head start over many players.

The only queries I have are on your item choices. Building phantom dancer first seems like a bad idea in my opinion, you'll end up with a high crit and attack speed but no damage to make either of these count. And so until you get bloodthirster you will be severely lacking in damage. Also, Bloodrazor seems like an unusual choice for your last item. By this time you have crit rating, crit damage and damage, so why build an item where the majority of damage isn't actually effected by any of these? (Obviously it's a good choice if they have 2 or more people stacking health)


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ScrewtapeGG

Senior Member

03-06-2010

Quote:
Elandel:

The only queries I have are on your item choices. Building phantom dancer first seems like a bad idea in my opinion, you'll end up with a high crit and attack speed but no damage to make either of these count. And so until you get bloodthirster you will be severely lacking in damage. Also, Bloodrazor seems like an unusual choice for your last item. By this time you have crit rating, crit damage and damage, so why build an item where the majority of damage isn't actually effected by any of these? (Obviously it's a good choice if they have 2 or more people stacking health)


Ah, the above was not a complete build sequence. In fact I didn't even put anything in any order. I simply put the final build. Here is the sequence:

Regular boots (also some consumables to start the game with)
Greaves
Vamp Scepter
Small Razors(for the minion damage proc, go go dragon farming)
Zeal
Phantom(Sometimes Brut before Phantom)
Brut
Bloodthirster
Infinity
Bloodrazor

I'll add this to my post above. TY


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ScrewtapeGG

Senior Member

03-06-2010

Quote:
Elandel:
Also, Bloodrazor seems like an unusual choice for your last item. By this time you have crit rating, crit damage and damage, so why build an item where the majority of damage isn't actually effected by any of these?


Your point is well taken, and in my first post I ask the question, Is Bloodrazor the optimal item choice?

In your opinion, what would you sub it for?


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Windswept

Member

03-06-2010

I have about 150 games with ashe.


My runes are Atk speed for red and yellow. -cd for blue and +exp for quints.


I always solo mid. I run with 21/0/9 so having that extra +exp is a BIG help on gaining ground over my opponent.


My first Item is either meki+2hp pots or regen, I then turn to Philo. I belive that nothing beats a philo. It has all the hp/mp rgen you will ever need and gives you gold to boot.

Beserkers. then Bf. Malady. Bf> IF. After that I build according to enemy team.


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KKamansek

Junior Member

03-06-2010

Hmm, I might not have the Ashe resume some other people have, but I'd say I'm good with her. 23/16, 317/173/444 overall. I usually average 1x/1-2/xx these days.

Something I would like to add is early game harassment. I always start out the gate with Doran's Shield and a health pot, and I hold onto the shield until I'm just shy of a late-game item, or I run out of room. The extra 120hp gives you a significant advantage over other heroes in the same lane. I run with crit dmg runes because of Ashe's passive, which is not to be underestimated and really helps you punish from the get-go. 120 extra HP and a high probability of crit after some volley harassment and pacing goes a long way towards an early hero kill.


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blackjackz

Senior Member

03-06-2010

Marks,Quints Armor Pen
the other goes to CD, I also has a dodge yellow rune page that i sometime use.

i go with also 21/0/9, first item Doran's Blade and hp pot, pretty much guarantee an early kill.

then
Pickaxe
B. F. Sword
boot
Vampiric Scepter

then either
Black Cleaver first or another B. F. Sword
Boots of Swiftness
Infinity Edge
Stark's Fervor
Bloodthirster
then usually an hp or defence item or phantom depends on situation.

I notice the potential damage of Bloodrazor, and did try to fit it in my item list some point, but i have enough damage in my build and i want more life steal and critical.

Black Cleaver is my recommend item, it really does amazing damage early and late game.


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Madawc

Senior Member

03-06-2010

there is no such thing as an advanced ashe disscusion, ashe is a 1 dimensional champ.

really need a guide? chalice/boots/Pdancer/ 1 of each BF sword item. there ya go, a build that never has to change for any enemy team


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Azazelle

Junior Member

03-06-2010

whoa I hope you dont mean in that order because with chalice boots and dancer when your ult is down your only choice left is to ... tickle enemies champion to death?

afther 150 game or so with ashe I still like to go infinity first (well afther the boots) but I must admit I havent made a lot of tests I guess I'll try your build before to go into further comments


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Alexi

Senior Member

03-06-2010

Quote:
Madawc:
there is no such thing as an advanced ashe disscusion, ashe is a 1 dimensional champ.

really need a guide? chalice/boots/Pdancer/ 1 of each BF sword item. there ya go, a build that never has to change for any enemy team


uhhh lol that is a bad build

Quote:
Dirtysprocket:
My current build is this:

Greaves/Phantom/Bloodthirster/Brutalizer/Infinity/Bloodrazor
Edit:Here is the sequence:

Regular boots (also some consumables to start the game with)
Greaves
Vamp Scepter
Small Razors(for the minion damage proc, go go dragon farming)
Zeal
Phantom(Sometimes Brut before Phantom)
Brut
Bloodthirster
Infinity
Bloodrazor


First off, I would consider different starting items than boots. Boots are ok in a sense that it works well with frost arrow. However, it is only ideal if you are chasing someone when there are no minions around, since if there are minions you will likely take damage and Ashe is squishy.

Greaves are ok but since you are getting attack speed later on as well, so I wouldn't recommend getting it. Instead I would get boots 3 or merc treads (depends on the other team).

Vamp Scepter this early is a bad choice simply because low damage + low life steal = low amount of hp back. At the same time, you are assuming that you can just sit there and auto attack your health back. However, this isn't the case most of the time. If you are going ganked then you cannot get your health back through life steal. Another problem is that you are forced to constantly auto attack in order to get your health back, this means that you cannot last hit that well.

Razors are bad on Ashe, simply because you will have no damage against other champions. And you can go dragon farming with one other person instead of wasting gold on razors.

Zeal/Phantom. Again, you want attack damage first because low damage + attack speed = low damage output. First, having say an Infinity early means that you are literally doubling your base damage. At level 12, Ashe has 78 base damage (based off of leaguecraft) and adding an Infinity would mean you are doubling that damage. Your +25% + 45% attack speed will not have the effect. And you are assuming you can just sit there and auto attack the other team. If you are nuked, stunned, or shut down in a few seconds you will not do that much damage (since attack speed is damage output over time). If you had attack damage then even if you are dead in a few seconds you would have done a good amount of damage. Also, if you plan on volley spamming (which you shouldn't really) then attack damage goes hand and hand with volley. Attack speed doesn't increase volley's damage, attack damage does.

Brut/Blood/Infinity/BloodRazor. At this point you have very little damage compared to other dps champions. And by the time you get attack damage items, other dps champions will have high damage output than Ashe does late game.

Brutalizer is not good on Ashe. First, it is decent only if you get it early on. At that point it is better to just wait to get a BF sword to make other items. And if you get Brutalizer later on then it is a waste because you can get a little bit more gold to get Last Whisper or Stark Fervor which are both better items. If the other team is stacking armor for you, most likely they will stack a lot of it, therefore Whisper is better. Also, if the other team has aegis then it is much better to have Starks since you counter aegis team wide. Brutalizer you only counter one person. And Ashe doesn't need cooldown reduction.

My item build is typically:
Catalyst (which becomes banshees later on), Infinity, Boots 3, Whisper/Stark

or

Doran's Shield, Catalyst (which becomes banshees), Infinity, Boots 3, Whisper/Stark

The ordering depends on how much gold you get at a specific time. Say if you have 1850 gold early on, then get a BF Sword instead of finishing your catalyst.

Starting it is either:

Sapphire Crystal + 2 HP pots

or

Doran's Shield + 1 HP pot