To Jungle Or not to Jungle

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M2Cipher

Member

04-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludak021 View Post
maybe you should take a lot at his http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=550 when talking olaf and jungling...Olaf starts at blue mate After getting the red buff (~2 minutes) he has no need to stun, he slows from distance, caches up and that's that, his attacks slow the enemy. (you build frozen mallet later on) You can hardly escape if you don't have flash or team support. In theory anyways, but look at the videos.

thanks for your tips anyway, appreciated, although Olaf doesn't need att speed runes at all, you can get HP and AR/AR pen runes instead. I am no expert but ARpen is always usefull as is AR. 18 might not be much but +18 from starting cloth and you have 36 early game + your base...jungle at half HP for +50% att speed and not worry too much about enemy jungler with all that armor + you are off tank already...

PS. You could also add the part that in early game ppl in lanes (2 solo lanes and one normal) shouldn't "steal" creeps from your teams jungle since it's junglers only source of exp and gold at that time, and I see people stealing 2 golems and whatnot all the time when they get zoned out or just because they can. It cripples your early jungle and sets you back.
I do ask people politely not to do it, but if they do it anyway I just show them how fast Olaf can farm their lane...Not polite but it's no longer proper team play anyway when someone just ignores you right? Maybe not, dunno, all I know is that I need lantern asap or I might just go and lane farm instead...
Yes and it is crappy if they take your jungle, however if they do that... Take some of their lane , no need for you to be underleveld because of them not knowing how to play.


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Ludak021

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Senior Member

04-29-2011

Well, I cannot dispute what you are saying, I am just pointing out some things that also some hi ranked players point out for Olaf, that's all.
Half HP on Olaf...well...I haven't been in games (not in lol, in dota or HoN, I am new in LoL) where you go to enemy jungle in first ~5 minutes unless you go with someone else and know exactly what you are doing And those are more of skilled games then just regular pubs...besides, half hp on olaf = +50% att speed + W = you doing 70dmg per attack and stealing ~6 with each hit and FAST You also have ghost if it gets too hot that early...it's not doing you any good that early anyway so CD on that won't be much issue.


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Aynia

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04-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by M2Cipher View Post
I can play a jungle well . I did send you an invite to prove to you about sion jungle. Not only did i do it faster then 4:00 like you said.... Jungeling the entire jungle in 2:46. Come watch if you want.

Also you are a all of 40 points higher then me in solo at your highest? I am ranked in 3s and 5s premade higher then any of your highs... Your argument of you being a better player based on your solo Q is kinda lol?
If you clear your side in 2:46, starting at 1:40, that's 4:26 when you finish. (Confirmed in a practice game together.) An olaf would have beaten you by a whole minute, as would a rammus. Nocturne would most certainly be done by then as well. In fact, even Shen, who is notoriously known for his slow (but IMMENSELY safe) jungle would beat you by a few seconds. And by the practice game, you died at red. You almost died at blue as well. Sion jungle is far too unreliable and dangerous and his jungle battling is weak. Getting caught would certainly mean death or a forced recall.

Olaf on the other hand is great jungler. His Q makes for great ganks, you just have to hit it. By gank time at level 4, it should be level 2, that's a 28% slow. You're going to force a burning of at least 1 summoner or get that kill off.

Also, olaf clears his side by 3:30. Faster than almost anyone.
Not to mention, olaf is a god tier late game champion.
His true damage hurts, he scales extremely well and is immensely tanky, his ult also makes him immune to CC, he will stick on your squishy and he will kill him, period.

Because of all of this, Olaf is a GREAT counter pick. In ranked, where CC is a dime a dozen, Olaf excels because of his immunity to CC, his tankiness, AoE slow and true damage.


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M2Cipher

Member

04-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aynia View Post
If you clear your side in 2:46, starting at 1:40, that's 4:26 when you finish. (Confirmed in a practice game together.) An olaf would have beaten you by a whole minute, as would a rammus. Nocturne would most certainly be done by then as well. In fact, even Shen, who is notoriously known for his slow (but IMMENSELY safe) jungle would beat you by a few seconds. And by the practice game, you died at red. You almost died at blue as well. Sion jungle is far too unreliable and dangerous and his jungle battling is weak. Getting caught would certainly mean death or a forced recall.

Olaf on the other hand is great jungler. His Q makes for great ganks, you just have to hit it. By gank time at level 4, it should be level 2, that's a 28% slow. You're going to force a burning of at least 1 summoner or get that kill off.

Also, olaf clears his side by 3:30. Faster than almost anyone.
Not to mention, olaf is a god tier late game champion.
His true damage hurts, he scales extremely well and is immensely tanky, his ult also makes him immune to CC, he will stick on your squishy and he will kill him, period.

Because of all of this, Olaf is a GREAT counter pick. In ranked, where CC is a dime a dozen, Olaf excels because of his immunity to CC, his tankiness, AoE slow and true damage.
Plz don't tell me you think shen is fast... at all.. One of the slowest in all history of lol.. He also wouldn't have beaten that time..... If you are saying you can clear the jungle by 4:26 (or earlier you say) with shen.. I am ready to join your practice game and watch.


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Scynix

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04-29-2011

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on Nocturne.
I enjoy playing him immensely (haven't had this much fun since Deadwood in HoN and Phantom Lancer in DotA. Yes I realize they are completely different) but I find myself starting off great, even getting ahead in level only to taper off around 3-4 when I get red buff. I'm always too wounded to continue or gang unless I fountain first, which consumes a large amount of my buff time.

Complete details would be even more appreciated.

Thank you for taking the time to help others.


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M2Cipher

Member

04-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scynix View Post
I'd really like to hear your thoughts on Nocturne.
I enjoy playing him immensely (haven't had this much fun since Deadwood in HoN and Phantom Lancer in DotA. Yes I realize they are completely different) but I find myself starting off great, even getting ahead in level only to taper off around 3-4 when I get red buff. I'm always too wounded to continue or gang unless I fountain first, which consumes a large amount of my buff time.

Complete details would be even more appreciated.

Thank you for taking the time to help others.

I love and enjoy using nocturne immensely!!! He is an amazing Jungle, and his ganks are some of the best.

When playing noc I again use 31% attack and 6% dodge or Armour on yellows. His passive procs more often so you get more life back. Not to mention, when in early game if you hit your q you do so much dmg with that attack speed you can almost take anyone at lvl 1.

If you have a team that will actually make sure you are safe you can start at blue with a leash. I ALWAYS start at wolves however so as not to waste time on xp per minute. Wolves spawn at 1:40 and you can almost have them totally dead at 1:55 (wich is when golems are up). Always keep your eyes open for a gank even at lvl 2. If you see somone overextended you can catch them since your Q allows you to run through mininos and your fear holds them in place while you take them down.

I alway roll with Maxing my Q on him first and his fear second. I also always get wriggles on him. ounce you have wriggles you can keep jungeling no problem at all. With that attack speed and all the procs you keep close to full life most of the time.

Keep in mind with Nocturne you can use your wriggles to put in the enemy jungle. Buy a few extras to keep on Dragon and both of the enemies buffs. You can us your ult to gank them and take the buff at any point. Or just ult on them and smite it.

If you have any other questions Ide be happy to answer

What masteries are you rolling right now? I use the 21/0/9 for him. You end up getting about 15 more dmg, that combined with his q and the attack speed ganks very well. You can catch anyone out of the lane or overextended a bit and have a high probability of getting your gank off successfully.


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FABIOForever

Senior Member

04-29-2011

When not to jungle? That's easy: any public game (unless it's purely for practice). It's way too hit or miss in public games on whether or not your team can handle an extra solo lane. Even if they pick a capable 2on1 champion (most pub junglers simply say "I'm gonna jungle!" without even looking at their team makeup) you have no clue if they're good enough to handle it until they're feeding 0-5 in the first ten minutes. The team benefits for jungling just isn't worth the risks in a public game.

That said, maxing the offensive mastery tree is by far the poorest choice. Anything beyond 9 points for the cdr/pen is extremely questionable when compared to the utility or even the defensive tree. Offensive is the only tree whose abilities get worse in the bottom half. The only reason to even consider maxing the offensive tree is if you're going to without a doubt rush an infinity edge and crit chance items, to the point where the only champion I realistically consider it for is Tryndamere. Since most junglers rely on attack speed for on-hit items like wriggles and madreds, a max offensive tree is not a good choice.

While I don't disagree that Nocturne can be a good at jungling, I always thought that he's wasted on such a role since he's a much better laner, arguably the best melee laner in the game. His abilities give him unit walk, a spell shield, and a fear CC: all wasted on jungling. The on-hit damage and AD bonus for for the early levels is no joke, and give him a significant early damage advantage.

And wriggles for an item on him? He already gets AD and AS bonuses to the point where crit chance becomes the most cost effective way to increase his dps. His passive is marginally useful but not good enough to base your entire build around.


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M2Cipher

Member

04-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by FABIOForever View Post
When not to jungle? That's easy: any public game (unless it's purely for practice). It's way too hit or miss in public games on whether or not your team can handle an extra solo lane. Even if they pick a capable 2on1 champion (most pub junglers simply say "I'm gonna jungle!" without even looking at their team makeup) you have no clue if they're good enough to handle it until they're feeding 0-5 in the first ten minutes. The team benefits for jungling just isn't worth the risks in a public game.

That said, maxing the offensive mastery tree is by far the poorest choice. Anything beyond 9 points for the cdr/pen is extremely questionable when compared to the utility or even the defensive tree. Offensive is the only tree whose abilities get worse in the bottom half. The only reason to even consider maxing the offensive tree is if you're going to without a doubt rush an infinity edge and crit chance items, to the point where the only champion I realistically consider it for is Tryndamere. Since most junglers rely on attack speed for on-hit items like wriggles and madreds, a max offensive tree is not a good choice.

While I don't disagree that Nocturne can be a good at jungling, I always thought that he's wasted on such a role since he's a much better laner, arguably the best melee laner in the game. His abilities give him unit walk, a spell shield, and a fear CC: all wasted on jungling. The on-hit damage and AD bonus for for the early levels is no joke, and give him a significant early damage advantage.

And wriggles for an item on him? He already gets AD and AS bonuses to the point where crit chance becomes the most cost effective way to increase his dps. His passive is marginally useful but not good enough to base your entire build around.
I think what you eveidently didn't read was the guy was asking about how to jungle him and input.. Which you didn't take the time to read.

I gave him what he needed and yes wriggles is the item for jungeling. That aside he is a great laner. However, when all lanes are in fear the entire game that they may get ulted and play passively that is great as well.

Also, masteries can be however anyone wants them.. Its the play style of the player. I would rather have more dmg at early game to dominate my ganks on Nocturne for instance.

In the end the utilites is always going to be the best, but for some characters i still do offensive and after jungeling over 1200 games, that is what works best for ME.

I jungle in ranked 1500+ (which isnt that great I know) and normals and usually do great.

Ounce again this is all based off of my experience of jungleing not everyone elses or all the videos we could watch .


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Shubaku

Member

04-29-2011

Really nice, M2Ciper. I wish I could benefit from your experience as well.

I've been playing shaco lately and I've been trying the following path:
smite wraith, 2x Golems (2JitB already set) then red lizard (3JitB already set).
I saw a video where this was very well done, but now I just can't do this unless I smite the red lizard.
So, is that it? How could I be more effective?

Also, I find very curious this extreme attack speed rune setup. Is that really the most effective for jungling? And what about health runes?


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SeveriantheGreat

Junior Member

04-29-2011

I'm also curious about your thoughts on Shaco's runes/route, since the mr jungle patch, I think some routes/setups are much less reliable for him. Lately i've just smited wraiths and used 5 preset jitbs for liz, that way I'm gank ready almost immediately with high health and deceive, early shaco ganks are the best.