Why No One Should Ever Buy Crit DMG

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EnderA

Senior Member

03-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospero View Post
Don't champs have < 30 armor at the start of the round? I always figured the only valid use of crit damage runes was for gank happy Shaco's at level 1.
Yes, they do. However, if you are choosing between all crit damage and all armor penetration, armor penetration is still better against champions in the beginning of the round (see wildfire393's post: https://www.leagueoflegends.com/boar...417#post778417) If all you're concerned about is extremely early game shaco crits, then best would be ~19 armor penetration (so you're penetrating all their armor) and a small amount of crit damage. But once they get more armor, pure armor penetration is strictly better. And the crit dmg would still only affect the crit.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EroticBadass

Senior Member

03-05-2010

Thank you for the math, I have always wondered which was better.

I don't actually have crit damage b/c the only carry I use is tristana and crit damage is very situational. But I do have crit chance on red/quint which is +12% and translates to 20% crit chance at level 1.

Need to know how crit chance compares to armor pen before I go off wasting around 7000 IP. I know with crit chance I still have problems with armor stacking foes early on, but I also have a great advantage against squishies early on. Seeing as they like to stick around and take some hits and next thing they know they're hit hard.

Maybe an equation that situates damage for 5 hits and 10 hits and seeing if the burst from the critical is diluted by the steady increase of damage from the armor pen runes.

edit:
oh and for the guys still questioning this, armor can go to the negatives and you would use the same equation that the OP is using


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Klazzix

Senior Member

03-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klazzix View Post
First of all, this is really nice of you.

So this will be a rune question. I've been wondering for sometime now what's a better offensive runeset (DPS) between these two:

a. Pure Critical Chance (20%)
b. Armor Penetration + Critical Chance (29 + 6%)

Let's also say I always get Infinity Edge and Last Whisper as my damage items.

Thanks in advance!

Actually nevermind the question. I did some math based on your calculations on the front. Just correct it if it's wrong.

*100 armor target
*With Infinity Edge (20%) & Last Whisper (40)
*Calc based over 10 hits

a. Critical Chance (20%)

50%
250%
180
5 * 180 * 2.5 * (100/160) = 1406.25
5 * 180 * (100/160) = 562.5
Total = 1968.75

b. ArPen + Critical Chance (29 + 6%)

36%
250%
180
3.6 * 180 * 2.5 * (100/130.63) = 1240.14
6.4 * 180 * (100/130.63) = 881.88
Total = 2122.02


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

wildfire393

Senior Member

03-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by EroticBadass View Post
Thank you for the math, I have always wondered which was better.

I don't actually have crit damage b/c the only carry I use is tristana and crit damage is very situational. But I do have crit chance on red/quint which is +12% and translates to 20% crit chance at level 1.

Need to know how crit chance compares to armor pen before I go off wasting around 7000 IP. I know with crit chance I still have problems with armor stacking foes early on, but I also have a great advantage against squishies early on. Seeing as they like to stick around and take some hits and next thing they know they're hit hard.

Maybe an equation that situates damage for 5 hits and 10 hits and seeing if the burst from the critical is diluted by the steady increase of damage from the armor pen runes.

edit:
oh and for the guys still questioning this, armor can go to the negatives and you would use the same equation that the OP is using
Negative, Armor Penetration cannot lower below zero. Armor reduction (abilities, Black Cleaver, Stark's Fervor), which applies before armor pen, can reduce below zero.

Also, armor pen always does more damage per attack than Crit Chance does. The only reasons to use crit chance would be:
1) Abilities that trigger off of crit, such as Tryndamere's Spinning Slash and Bloodlust. More crit chance = more crits = more triggers of these abilities.
2) Burst damage abilities that can crit, such as Pirate's Parrrley. Though Armor Penetration might give more average damage per hit, the sheer output of a critical strike on Parrrley makes it potentially worthwhile to increase its crit chance. Armor pen improves the damage of a non-crit 500-base parrrley by ~40 against a target with 80 armor (fairly standard for level 18), but a critical without the armor pen does over 250 more. Considering you can parrrley only once every few seconds, it is arguably better to maximize the chance of having a massive damage parrrley than it is to boost the damage on each regular parrrley.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EroticBadass

Senior Member

03-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfire393 View Post
Negative, Armor Penetration cannot lower below zero. Armor reduction (abilities, Black Cleaver, Stark's Fervor), which applies before armor pen, can reduce below zero.

Also, armor pen always does more damage per attack than Crit Chance does. The only reasons to use crit chance would be:
1) Abilities that trigger off of crit, such as Tryndamere's Spinning Slash and Bloodlust. More crit chance = more crits = more triggers of these abilities.
2) Burst damage abilities that can crit, such as Pirate's Parrrley. Though Armor Penetration might give more average damage per hit, the sheer output of a critical strike on Parrrley makes it potentially worthwhile to increase its crit chance. Armor pen improves the damage of a non-crit 500-base parrrley by ~40 against a target with 80 armor (fairly standard for level 18), but a critical without the armor pen does over 250 more. Considering you can parrrley only once every few seconds, it is arguably better to maximize the chance of having a massive damage parrrley than it is to boost the damage on each regular parrrley.
agh I see thank you for clearing that up. I was going to get armor pen anyways, so that I can use udyr more effectively


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zeero

Senior Member

03-08-2010

I still typically use crit dmg when I play Trynd (which is less and less these days) because I love those big crits that take 50% of someones health at lvl 1-2. Everyone else I use Armor Pen on. I actually had a full page of each before I realized that armor pen was better in more situations... ah well.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EnderA

Senior Member

03-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeero View Post
I still typically use crit dmg when I play Trynd (which is less and less these days) because I love those big crits that take 50% of someones health at lvl 1-2. Everyone else I use Armor Pen on. I actually had a full page of each before I realized that armor pen was better in more situations... ah well.
If you look at the math, you'll see that the big crits that take 50% of someone's health with Crit Dmg would take 55% of someone's health with Armor Penetration. Not only do you get bigger hits, you get bigger crits!

In other words, Armor Penetration is strictly better on Trynd. If you want to go for crits, get crit chance. (Which actually makes sense on Trynd.)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Madawc

Senior Member

03-08-2010

i guess if you get to continuously hit the same target the armor pen is better.

but i prefer killing a tank with 5 auto ashe attacks.

largest auto attack crit i recall is 1293 on the lizard elder with ashe

crits for 700+ on tanks

3 shotting mages


if your item build ever at any point has an infinity edge and a last whisper, youd be a fool to not want an additional 52% crit damage. throw in a black cleaver.

so there are 5 items that give armor penetration all of wich are viable in a game.

while only 2 items give additional crit damage, and nobody buys sword of occult

when your critting for 302% damage, with any of the armor pen item you hitting like a ****ing truck.

you really cant fit a black cleaver and a last whisper into your build?

do all the math you want, crit damage is a rare commodity while armor pen and crit chance are easily attained.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EnderA

Senior Member

03-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madawc View Post
i guess if you get to continuously hit the same target the armor pen is better.

but i prefer killing a tank with 5 auto ashe attacks.

largest auto attack crit i recall is 1293 on the lizard elder with ashe

crits for 700+ on tanks

3 shotting mages


if your item build ever at any point has an infinity edge and a last whisper, youd be a fool to not want an additional 52% crit damage. throw in a black cleaver.

so there are 5 items that give armor penetration all of wich are viable in a game.

while only 2 items give additional crit damage, and nobody buys sword of occult

when your critting for 302% damage, with any of the armor pen item you hitting like a ****ing truck.

you really cant fit a black cleaver and a last whisper into your build?

do all the math you want, crit damage is a rare commodity while armor pen and crit chance are easily attained.
How can I make it any more clear? ARMOR PENETRATION GIVES BIGGER CRITS THAN CRIT DAMAGE.

Don't believe me? Look at the math. Or read the dozens of other posts I've made in the thread.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Klazzix

Senior Member

03-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderA View Post
How can I make it any more clear? ARMOR PENETRATION GIVES BIGGER CRITS THAN CRIT DAMAGE.

Don't believe me? Look at the math. Or read the dozens of other posts I've made in the thread.
Lol'd

but yeah it's true, except when you're carrying a Stark's + Black Cleaver and have an 80 armor target, you'll be bringing them down to 0 and extra ArPen runes are put to waste. Crit Damage will give bigger crits in this situation.