Quote:

Originally Posted by

**Smuggler**
One word, Tyrndamere. Critting people at level 1 for 300 damage proves this entire theory wrong, so what if I have to get a Last Whisper as my 2nd or third damage item, Need attack speed anyway.

Tryndamere should definitely not be getting crit damage. He already has a crit damage skill (making armor pen/crit chance more appealing,) would love some more crit chance for his abilities, and does more damage with armor penetration. Last whisper's % pen applies before flat pen, making armor pen more appealing. So either crit chance or armor pen. Not crit damage.

But feel free to completely ignore everything said in the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by

**Phi Trigger**
The formula you found is damage *reduction*, not final damage modifier. So for example, if you have 0 armor, you'd reduce the damage by 0.

While armor penetration is very alluring, there is one item that makes all the mathematics go a bit awry. That item is last whisper. The reason why this item screws with the math is because it has a percentage armor penetration rather than a set number of armor penetrated, which means that it's effectiveness is increased if you do not have armor penetration runes by the order that armor reduction is applied (percentages come last). The combination of critical damage and last whisper is very potent indeed.

Actually, Last Whisper's % penetration is applied *before* flat armor penetration, meaning it makes flat armor penetration *more* effective.

The order is:

-Armor Reduction

-% Armor Pen

-Flat Armor Pen

Quote:

Originally Posted by

**Phi Trigger**
The correct formula for total damage is actually:

Total damage = Attack * Crit damage - Attack * Crit damage * armor/(100 + armor)

Which simplifies to:

Total damage = Attack * Crit damage * (1 - Armor / 100 + armor)

= Attack * Crit damage * ( (100 + armor - armor)/(100 + armor) )

= Attack * Crit damage * 100/(100 + armor)

Which we can see is the formula ender gave....except.....one thing about armor penetration - I am not quite so sure that it modifies as a direct negative from armor in the way that is listed. I don't see any help files relating to the way armor penetration effects, but it seems to me that armor reduction effects would not be the same as armor penetration effects, which would be the case by the equations used in this thread.

My guess, without proof, would be armor penetration value is the maximum number of damage that is delt without any armor reduction. So for example, someone with 100 damage with 20 armor penetration attacking a player with 100 armor would deal 60 damage instead of 50 if that armor penetration were 0. This would make it a distinct statistic from armor reduction.

Nice, you correctly derived the damage equation from the listed equation in champion statistics.

I am certain Armor Penetration works as I described. The three differences between armor reduction and armor penetration are: 1) It's applied before armor penetration, meaning it stacks very poorly with % penetration. 2) Armor reduction affects the actual statistic, making it increase all damage dealt to the target. Meaning with a black cleaver, you're increasing everyone's damage versus that target, and you'll see their armor drop by that amount every hit. Armor penetration just makes your attack do damage as though they had that much less armor. 3) It can reduce their armor below 0. (Armor penetration's effect is capped at 0 armor.)

If you reduce their armor to below 0, then the new damage calculation is:

Total damage = Attack Damage (* Crit Damage if it's a crit) * (100 + |Armor|) / 100, since Armor is negative.

If they didn't change that equation, you'd end up with infinite damage at -100 armor.