Rune question

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Leptiric

Senior Member

03-04-2010

Hello.
I was just wondernig what is the best rune combination for heroes like ashe, shaco, gangp..i was thinkg about getting full crit chance?


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SmecssRaege

Senior Member

03-04-2010

if you want one for all 3

crit DMG will be your better bet (for shaco and gangplank especially) also useful on ashe with your passive

crit chance can effortlessly be acquired from items (and elixir of agility) and those 3 heros in specific all take huge bonuses with crit damage (shaco's auto crit on deceive, gangplanks crit parley bombs)


crit chance isnt a bad choice either, makes you more intimidating from the get go, it depends if you want to build early-mid game (Crit chance) or mid-late game (crit dmg) really =P (except shaco, in which case, crit dmg #1 choice)


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EnderA

Senior Member

03-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmecssRaege View Post
if you want one for all 3

crit DMG will be your better bet (for shaco and gangplank especially) also useful on ashe with your passive

crit chance can effortlessly be acquired from items (and elixir of agility) and those 3 heros in specific all take huge bonuses with crit damage (shaco's auto crit on deceive, gangplanks crit parley bombs)


crit chance isnt a bad choice either, makes you more intimidating from the get go, it depends if you want to build early-mid game (Crit chance) or mid-late game (crit dmg) really =P (except shaco, in which case, crit dmg #1 choice)
NO!

The ONLY hero for which I consider crit damage a better choice is Shaco.

Check out the math: (and this is all *before* the 10% nerf to crit damage)
https://www.leagueoflegends.com/boar...ad.php?t=34791

Crit damage seems great. At first I thought it would be awesome. Then I checked the math. I have not looked back since. Until you hit 100% crit chance, you can always benefit from more crit chance. However, crit damage fully relies on having a chance to crit to do *anything*. That means your item build is locked-in, and your effectiveness is purely late-game. You *have to* go crit chance in order to make it effective, meaning you can't adapt to the game as it progresses.

Shaco is a different story. Because he has a skill that makes him able to crit consistently even from level 1, crit damage can set up some very deadly ganks early on.

Ashe I could see someone using crit damage, since she has a passive that creates somewhat regular critical strikes. However, that passive does nothing mid-combat, and is incredibly weak early game, in effect only guaranteeing you a crit your first hit of the game and the first hit of combats mid/late-game. As I said it also locks in your item build.

Gangplank, I completely disagree with. There is no innate synergy with crit damage. He doesn't have any crit-chance increasing skills. He isn't a late-game carry (despite what some people think) so having big crits late is only slightly extending his effectiveness. Yes you can create bigger "burst" damage, but *less often* than if you went crit chance. If you feel like crit chance is too easy to acquire, I'd go with Armor Penetration rather than crit damage (now that parrrley is physical damage.) This increases your parrrley damage significantly throughout the game.

To compare every rune choice, you can check out the Rune Database Spreadsheet I created:
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=50741

tl;dr: Don't go crit dmg unless you only play Shaco. Go crit chance or armor pen. (Or attack speed, which works, too, if you have good on-hit effects.)


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Sunaka

Senior Member

03-04-2010

Go full crit damage.

ESPECIALLY ON SHACO / GANGPLANK.

Shacos decieve is an AUTO crit with BONUS damage. decieve can easily knock off half a squishies life with full crit damage runes.

They're also useful on ashe if you use her passive to just one shot / volley harass your enemies.

I cannot tell you how many kills ive racked up early game on ANY champion just from getting a lucky crit and nailing 150+ damage

They're expensive (Took me a looong time to build it up) but well worth it


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EnderA

Senior Member

03-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunaka View Post
Go full crit damage.

ESPECIALLY ON SHACO / GANGPLANK.

Shacos decieve is an AUTO crit with BONUS damage. decieve can easily knock off half a squishies life with full crit damage runes.

They're also useful on ashe if you use her passive to just one shot / volley harass your enemies.

I cannot tell you how many kills ive racked up early game on ANY champion just from getting a lucky crit and nailing 150+ damage

They're expensive (Took me a looong time to build it up) but well worth it
Shaco, maybe. Ashe, doubtful.

I cannot emphasize enough how wholeheartedly I disagree with you when it comes to ANY OTHER CHAMPION. Including Gangplank. If you absolutely must make each of your bursts do more damage, get Armor Penetration.

When I was new to the game, I thought exactly what you did. "Yay, huge crits!" "They'll never expect it!" "I'll make them turn tail and flee with one big crit!" But you are sacrificing far too much for just the random possibility of that happening.

-In marks for 20% crit damage, you're sacrificing 17.64 armor penetration, or 8% crit chance. The armor penetration alone will make you do MORE damage than if you went crit damage.
-In seals for a mere 7% crit damage, you're sacrificing 6.75% dodge or 12 flat armor or 24 armor at max lvl, or 175 hp at max lvl.
-In glyphs for a mere 5% crit damage, you're sacrificing 5.85% flat CD reduction, or 13.4 magic resist, or 24.3 MR @ 18, or 100 flat mana, or 230 mana @ 18, or 27.5 AP @ 18.
-In quints for 13.4% crit damage, you're sacrificing 11.7 armor penetration or +100 hp from the start, or 5.58% crit chance.

In marks and quints, armor penetration seems strictly better. Remember how armor penetration works:

Damage = (Calculated damage)*(100/(100+armor-armor pen)), as long as your armor pen is less than their armor.
So if they have 20 armor, and you have 20 armor penetration and you would originally do 100 damage:

With 20% crit damage on a crit: 220*(100/120) = 183
With 20 armor pen on a crit: 200

Well look at that! 20 armor penetration is BETTER THAN 20% CRIT DAMAGE ON A CRIT. But, you say, people usually have more than 20 armor. Alright, fine. What if they have 50 armor:

220*(100/150) = 146.7
200*(100/130) = 153.8

But, you say, people have more than 50 armor. Alright, fine. What if they have 100 armor:

220*(100/200) = 110
200*(100/180) = 111.1

tl;dr: armor pen is WAY better than crit dmg


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Sunaka

Senior Member

03-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderA View Post
Shaco, maybe. Ashe, doubtful.

I cannot emphasize enough how wholeheartedly I disagree with you when it comes to ANY OTHER CHAMPION. Including Gangplank. If you absolutely must make each of your bursts do more damage, get Armor Penetration.

When I was new to the game, I thought exactly what you did. "Yay, huge crits!" "They'll never expect it!" "I'll make them turn tail and flee with one big crit!" But you are sacrificing far too much for just the random possibility of that happening.

-In marks for 20% crit damage, you're sacrificing 17.64 armor penetration, or 8% crit chance. The armor penetration alone will make you do MORE damage than if you went crit damage.
-In seals for a mere 7% crit damage, you're sacrificing 6.75% dodge or 12 flat armor or 24 armor at max lvl, or 175 hp at max lvl.
-In glyphs for a mere 5% crit damage, you're sacrificing 5.85% flat CD reduction, or 13.4 magic resist, or 24.3 MR @ 18, or 100 flat mana, or 230 mana @ 18, or 27.5 AP @ 18.
-In quints for 13.4% crit damage, you're sacrificing 11.7 armor penetration or +100 hp from the start, or 5.58% crit chance.

In marks and quints, armor penetration seems strictly better. Remember how armor penetration works:

Damage = (Calculated damage)*(100/(100+armor-armor pen)), as long as your armor pen is less than their armor.
So if they have 20 armor, and you have 20 armor penetration and you would originally do 100 damage:

With 20% crit damage on a crit: 220*(100/120) = 183
With 20 armor pen on a crit: 200

Well look at that! 20 armor penetration is BETTER THAN 20% CRIT DAMAGE ON A CRIT. But, you say, people usually have more than 20 armor. Alright, fine. What if they have 50 armor:

220*(100/150) = 146.7
200*(100/130) = 153.8

But, you say, people have more than 50 armor. Alright, fine. What if they have 100 armor:

220*(100/200) = 110
200*(100/180) = 111.1

tl;dr: armor pen is WAY better than crit dmg
I have 46% crit damage : ).

And one piece of armor (700 g of armor) will easily destroy any amount of armor pen.

crit damage is better late game, and early game imo. Though, i might assemble a penetration book realizing how much i could get.


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EnderA

Senior Member

03-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunaka View Post
I have 46% crit damage : ).

And one piece of armor (700 g of armor) will easily destroy any amount of armor pen.

crit damage is better late game, and early game imo. Though, i might assemble a penetration book realizing how much i could get.
Then I pity you to have spent so much hard earned IP on such a wasteful set of runes. I hope the OP doesn't repeat that mistake.

Do you realize that the same piece of armor will also destroy your crit damage? Do you understand how damage is calculated?

If you want to know how different combinations of runes will do without buying them, you can just look at the rune database spreadsheet I made:
https://www.leagueoflegends.com/boar...ad.php?t=50741


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wildfire393

Senior Member

03-04-2010

Armor Pen.

Always, always Armor Pen. For any Physical DPS hero.

Why?

Armor Penetration gives better Damage per attack than Critical Chance or Critical Damage given an identical hero/item set-up in just about every case. There are only two cases where Crit Damage gives more DPS: when your Armor Penetration exceeds the target's armor, or when the target has a massive amount of armor (~300) so the penetration has a negligible effect on the reduction.

In addition, Armor Pen affects any ability that deals Physical damage (like Ashe's Volley and I believe Shaco's Shiv and possibly his JitBs) is affected by armor/armor pen.


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Leptiric

Senior Member

03-05-2010

Thx for all the advice guys.
I curently have 13% crit chance and i think il get the rest of armor pen runes and see how it works out on multiple heroes.


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EnderA

Senior Member

03-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leptiric View Post
Thx for all the advice guys.
I curently have 13% crit chance and i think il get the rest of armor pen runes and see how it works out on multiple heroes.
I'd recommend getting primary runes only, i.e. Armor Pen for marks, dodge for seals, CD red for glyphs, and whatever for Quints.