Snowball Jax: Item Theory

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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-02-2010

I like spreadsheets. I have one for LoL that calculates item value based on relative items and variables I input.

I recently input the variables to see Jax's top ranked items. Not surprisingly, a fully stacked Rageblade was near the top of the list. But even better than that? Half-stacked Mejai's Soulstealer. Right after that, Zhonya's Ring (with nothing else AP).

Here's some of the math and the top 20 items:
Everything is evaluated based on a basic item or a commonly accepted "good" item. For instance, AP is evaluated as 860/40, the gold paid per point of a Blasting Wand. Health is evaluated as 1150/430 (Giant's Belt). So, accounting for all of the item's properties but giving bonus 3*(1150/430)+(860/40) for AP and 5*(1150/430)+(1850/50) for AD, here are Jax's top items:

Value Ranking
1 Mejai's Soulstealer (20)
2 Madred's Bloodrazor (4k)
3 Sword of the Occult (20)
4 Atma's Impaler (4k)
5 Warmog's Armor (full)
6 Guinsoo's Rageblade (8)
7 Archangel's Staff (4k)
8 Bloodthirster (40)
9 Sword of the Occult (10)
10 Rod of Ages (full)
11 Mejai's Soulstealer (half)
12 Bloodthirster (30)
13 Sword of the Occult (5)
14 Zhonya's Ring (120)
15 Archangel's Staff (2k)
16 Infinity Edge (150)
17 Archangel's Staff (1.7k)
18 Bloodthirster (20)
19 Sword of the Divine
20 Infinity Edge (50)


NOTE: This ranking assumes that all game abilities are appropriately valued (by the designers) and their cost reflects that value. This will maximize gold value (not game value) given Jax's abilities.

DPS Ranking
1 Madred's Bloodrazor (4k)
2 Bloodthirster (40)
3 Infinity Edge (150)
4 Madred's Bloodrazor (1.7k)
5 Infinity Edge (50)
6 Bloodthirster (30)
7 Atma's Impaler (4k)
8 Bloodthirster (20)
9 The Black Cleaver
10 Bloodthirster (10)
11 Sword of the Divine
12 Bloodthirster (5) - has the same value as a stacked BF Sword
13 Sword of the Occult (20)
14 The Bloodthirster
15 Guinsoo's Rageblade (8)
16 B.F. Sword
17 Atma's Impaler (2k)
18 Sword of the Occult (10)
19 Tiamat
20 Last Whisper (probably higher based on target armor)

This ranking does not calculate AP or powers into the equation (or Jax's passive ult) and varies slightly with level and base damage from other items, runes, and masteries (crits and armor pen). I did not try to account for armor pen so Last Whisper and Brutalizer may be under-valued.

AP Rankings
1 Mejai's Soulstealer (20)
2 Guinsoo's Rageblade (8)
3 Archangel's Staff (4k) - needs testing, not sure if Jax can reach 4k mana
4 Rod of Ages (full)
5 Mejai's Soulstealer (half)
6 Zhonya's Ring (120)
7 Archangel's Staff (1.7k)
8 Zhonya's Ring
9 Guinsoo's Rageblade
10 Trinity Force
11 The Black Cleaver
12 Abyssal Scepter
13 Archangel's Staff
14 Nashor's Tooth
15 Rylai's Scepter
16 Doran's ring
17 Blasting Wand
18 Rod of Ages
19 Lich Bane
20 Amplifying Tome

NOTE: This is the same value calculation as the value rankings but filtered for only +AP items.

Please provide some ideas for calculating AP-based burst damage scenarios. Right now I'm thinking of Q + E + W damage maybe with an auto attack or 2 to see if a mix of DPS and AP works better than straight.


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typhoid fever

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Senior Member

03-02-2010

I would like to see some burst damage math. Once you have established the damage accompanying your analysis, then your post will be even better than it already is.

Is AP better than attack damage for burst on Jax?


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Aregionius

Senior Wrenchman

03-02-2010

I'm all for doing math and theory, but there are a couple things to be careful with here.

1. Item costs are set for a more overall level, some items are better or more suited for certain types of heroes, so the cost of a base item (Blasting Wand, Giants Belt, etc.) may not reflect their value towards a specific hero.

2. Certain stats aren't accounted for by base items, for example dodge doesn't have a base item to calculate value and would be left out, but has a major effect when playing with Jax.

3. It is much harder to use this theory to evaluate the effectiveness of passives or the synergy between items. Armor and magic penetration have significant effects, but it also depends on what type of damage you're doing most.

4. Just to make it a little more inclusive the bonus formula should be (3*AP)*(1150/430)+AP*(860/40) and similarly different for Damage. I think this is what you were doing, but it wasn't completely clear.


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Exag0n

Junior Member

03-02-2010

The problem I see with this list is that it does not include AD items. IMO, AD is clearly the best way to build Jax. A fully stacked Bloodthirster gives 500HP, and hitting people harder with 25% lifesteal means that you are that much harder to kill.


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Marid King

Senior Member

03-02-2010

he did include Attack damage items. None of them made it into the top 20, that's how ineffective they are compared to AP. Tried it myself, have to agree.


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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-02-2010

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the feedback. I double-checked my weighting and I was over-valuing AP (versus AD). I made the corrections and have a very high certainty for these figures. I also ran a full game experiment with Atma's as my only item. To my surprise, you get the +HP and the +AD of the *NEW*HP. That means that it is a very efficient weapon for Jax as early as level 10 (assuming you have another +HP item).

Z Ring, fell in value, so I had to create a +120 AP version to show when it passed the next higher item in the list. I will also remove one of the Angel Staff's (next to each other) to show the black cleaver at #20.


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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-02-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aregionius View Post
I'm all for doing math and theory, but there are a couple things to be careful with here.

2. Certain stats aren't accounted for by base items, for example dodge doesn't have a base item to calculate value and would be left out, but has a major effect when playing with Jax.
I actually use Tabi Boots to calculate Dodge since speed boost is a basic item. Complex powers like Dodge or Cooldown Reduction which have no base item, may therefore have a lower-than-normal value. Meaning, since they are only found on "built" items, their impact to the game may be higher then their gold value. In this case, my spreadsheet can apply a factor (like 1.2 or 1.4 instead of 1). But the standings here are all x1 right now. The DPS analysis may be different.


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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-03-2010

I posted the DPS rankings. The calculations seemed to come out as expected showing scalable items near the top. I think IE's high ranking demonstrates why it's a top-ELO item (fewer kills means you can't feed the bloodthirster). Biggest surprise is how Sword of the Divine ranks higher than stacked rageblade. This is the perfect counter to another Jax but also works well for general DPS value.

When you see what shows up on both lists, it's clear that Atma's can be very effective when you go AD over AP (as you will gain the HP faster with other AD items). Stacked Warmog's is still tops for value and easy to stack with a champ like Jax.

So, with AP analysis still underway, I think DPS Jax wants:
Regrowth Pendant
Boots > Boots2
BF Sword or Pickaxe
Warmog's
Atma's
BF Sword/Pickaxe > IE
BF Sword > Bloodrazor / Last Whisper

This puts Jax around 4k HP (tanky) and amazing damage potential.


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Bloodba7h

Senior Member

03-03-2010

I don't think Warmog's is very good. Just pick another DPS item and then get Atma's.. you'll see the efficiency at that point too.

Doran's Shield -> IE -> Atma's -> Bloodrazor -> BFSword
is looking pretty good right now

Huge damage potential, some good hp potential as well.


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AutoSponge

Senior Member

03-03-2010

I'm still going to try Warmog's because burst damage is lower (especially if someone uses attack slow debuffs against you). You need to live longer to actually contribute your DPS. Well, that's the theory anyway.

Remember, a fully stacked Warmog's gives you +27 AD (from Atma's). So, it is another damage item on top of being the biggest "value" item in the game (see list 1).


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