Is Kat still underpowered?

Yes 13 68.42%
Nope 6 31.58%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

Thoughts on Kat

12
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CakeandBacon

Senior Member

03-01-2010

First, a disclaimer: I'm not a pro. My ELO score is pretty average, my win/loss ratio is about 50/50, and I'm only lvl 15. But since I do main with Kat (even after the nerf) and the general consensus still seems to be that she's UP even after the buff to Death Lotus, I thought I'd throw in my two cents. This may take a while.

The post-buff Kat is an improvement, but the problem of Death Lotus remains. It still provides questionable damage in exchange for putting a giant "Stun Here" sign on your head. While escaping without a stun is a bit harder, 2.6 seconds still is plenty of time to run from it.

Not that it's useless. Late game I get kills with it often enough to use it, but it's still problematic that it is countered so easily.

As resident Kat expert Furor pointed out in a forum post that I can't be bothered to find, an ability that easily counter-able and dangerous to use should be rewarded with OMGWTF damage. This would put us roughly back where we were before the nerf she got smacked with a little while back.

Which is, to my mind, not a terribly desirable solution. The old Kat was almost entirely dependent on her Ulti for her damage, and (by extension) for usefulness in teamfights. Late game saw her reduced from an assassin into what amounted to a mobile gun turret. This worked great at low levels, but once you start fighting more experienced players who are more judicious with their abilities your ultimate becomes mediocre at best and suicidal at worst.

Most, if not all, of the balance tweaks for Kat have revolved around Death Lotus. This is ignoring the major problem with Kat, which is that she has no way to respond to anyone trying to counter her. If she doesn't get such capability, she should deal the aforementioned OMGWTF damage. On the other hand, if she does get stuff to help her set up or safeguard her ultra, then it should deal less damage (though still enough). The best way to do this (in my opinion) would be to tweak her other abilities a bit. Here are some suggestions.


Bouncing Blade
This is a really handy ability early game for harassing with Shunpo. Provides a lot of early damage with little reprise if you're careful about it. No complaints with this ability, but I think the range should be set back to it's old and slightly longer range.

Shunpo
Also excellent. Provides Kat with what amounts to flash in a lane, and excellent positioning ability in a teamfight. That said, I think it should do a bit more base damage. Just a bit, but more nonetheless. Just to make her a bit less reliant on Death Lotus. Other than that, no problems here either.

Killer Instincts
This rather strange ability is a great idea, but I think it's in need of some tweaks. The passive is almost entirely useless, as the extra damage isn't much more than a minion hit (not that it should be removed). However, it's effects on Shunpo and Bouncing Blade are, in my opinion, in need of a rework that would make it much more useful. A cooldown increase would probably be in order for these changes as well. So here are my ideas for alternate effects:

Shunpo: In addition to the dodge, this could also provide some sort of spell protection from stuns and other disables for a short amount of time (shorter than Death Lotus' duration, or it would be seriously OP). This would make using KI+Shunpo to DL a viable and dangerous combination in a teamfight, but with Death Lotus no longer being the damage hose it used to be, still balanced. I hope.

Bouncing Blade: The heal reduction on this isn't nearly as much or as useful as it should be. So I suggest removing it entirely. When KI is activated, Bouncing Blade becomes Pinning Blade, or Paralyzing Blade, or something like that. Basically a single low damage nuke with a stun that does not bounce. It hits one target, and the fact that you spent your 30 second cooldown KI (two kills to get it ready again) and a BB would give Kat ganking ability against a single target without relying on her ulti.


Death Lotus:
I think the channel time should be reduced a little more, by perhaps another .2 to .4 seconds. If that's OP, leave it at a nice 2.5 seconds. Also, the damage needs to be increased regardless of what happens to the rest of her abilities. However, the damage should receive a slight increase if some of the previous suggestions are used, and a really big one if not. Again, if it's not dealing OMGWTF damage, it needs to be safer to use and less the centerpiece of all Kat play. How the damage increases are handled isn't really a big deal, just get rid of the "% of weapon damage" thing. It makes DL seriously gimped at the early levels, while other characters have a powerful and handy ulti right of the bat. Make it deal % of Attack Damage, like before. Also, perhaps it would be good to have it stack on hit effects like Warwick's ult.


Well, that's about it. Before you flame like Annie with a flamethrower, know that all of this is probably a little OP if taken together. I should have probably just posted the proposed KI changes, but it's already written and it took me too long to write. So it stays. Hope this gives Riot some food for thought, if not the absolute answer to the issue.


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Liracy

Senior Member

03-01-2010

So, one thing I notice you leave out, and the thing I think is her absolute biggest problem is...


The lack of useful stats, she is PURE damage. Damage is expensive. Attack speed is worthless, so is Lifesteal and crit.

Her BASE attack speed is WAY to slow to be using daggers. She should be one of the fastest attacking characters in the game, yet I do believe Ashe, notches and fires an arrow at about the same speed Katarina manages to whack someone with a dagger, lol.


So, a big fix would be... allowing her to use the other stats, let her moves crit, make her auto attack not epic fail. Thanks.


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CakeandBacon

Senior Member

03-01-2010

Hadn't thought of that. Lifesteal is used in some builds, but I do believe that the auto attack should not be the center of her play like it is for Ashe or Warwick (who's another post altogether). I forgot to mention also that I think it would be a good idea for the weaker, safer version of Death Lotus to stack on hit effects. It would make it useful in a teamfight if not the ultimate death bomb.

Edit: Fixed that.


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yatenkun

Senior Member

03-01-2010

They promised KI buff, since cooldown has already been reduced by 1 sec(funny lol), so i still expect something coming to her,
she is not VERY UP as she was with her bugged nerfed ulti, now its better and im getting kills too and quite many, sometimes dominating, but until 11level i find her shunpo and bb better skills than her ulti.. only when you get loads of damage from items, loaded bloodtrhirsters, infinity, and b.f's then you can kill squishies.
Her BB nerf was so pointless, i really terribly feel the range, its only 50 in numbers, but its so much already.. doesnt help with chasing, and in last hitting creeps way too dangerous now, i always get bomb back from zilean, stun from taric, slow from nunu and other things..


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CakeandBacon

Senior Member

03-01-2010

Quote:
Her BB nerf was so pointless, i really terribly feel the range, its only 50 in numbers, but its so much already.. doesnt help with chasing, and in last hitting creeps way too dangerous now, i always get bomb back from zilean, stun from taric, slow from nunu and other things..
This is what I'm talking about. Kat is almost entirely helpless on her own. I just came from a game where I was laned with Alistair and I got 6 kills before lvl 6. Stick me with someone who has no stuns or heals and it becomes 10 times harder. Her lack of any sort of slow or disable means that she is entirely dependent on her teammates to open the door for a kill, which often leads to raging about killstealing. Giving her a disable would allow her to either stun and escape, stun and fight in a 1v1, but not stun, use her spell shield and then ultimate. That would be OP. Also, given the long cooldown of KI and her reliance on abilities, choosing one over the other would become a difficult tactical decision. Or at least more of a choice than it is now. The healing reduction isn't worth it.


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Munkey20

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Senior Member

03-02-2010

i think changing KI + BB to a short root is a good start. even 1 second to get ahead of other champs would give her some staying power. I like shunpo and the dodge, but i think it would be good if while under the effects of the dodge all CC times were lowered by 30% too. also i think it might be good to give KI some effect on DL. maybe if you use KI, it makes it .5 seconds faster to get more damage out quicker or it added a short silence to it.

now that i'm done talking about her abilities, lets discuss her disgraceful stats. i can accept her having low health and defense, if she put out the kind of damage that warranted being so squishy. Some CC will make her less squishy, but her damage output is pitiful for so weak. Whenever i try and play as her, the first 2 items i get are to improve her survivability. usually frozen mallet and merc treads. then i got for bloodthirster and infinity edge. If you can get base damage above 200 is just when she starts to get good, but even like this she has no chance 2v1 if she gets jumped. her attack speed is too low and if you work on buffing it, you are missing out on a ton of damage that can be done by her skills. even tho she is one of the faster champs with a 325 MS, she needs to run faster if she is going to be so weak.

according to the wiki her attributes are haste, stun, assassin, nuke, stealth, mage, and melee. this does differ from what it says ingame where it says haste, assassin, nuke, melee. When i bought kat, i know it still said stealth and mage, tho i can't remember the others. kat is 1 of 17 champs with the haste attribute, 3 of which don't actually have any way to boost their movement speed, the other are panth and taric. panth isn't tagged with has in game, but taric is. i won't go into stun since i don't remember it saying anything about it when i bought her, but stealth is something she doesn't have, but i would love to see her be able to take advantage of since she is a melee assassin.

she needs to be worked on to make her more viable. she is the weakest of all the champs in her teir and something needs to be done. give her a type of CC, buff her stats, increase her damage, or give her a haste like we are told she has.

please riot make her worthwhile.


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Bljurg

Senior Member

03-02-2010

I think Kat's change to her ultimate made her competitive at least and other upgrades are not necessary. I'd much rather see some characters nerfed than Katarina boosted. These days, seeing parties like Twitch, Ryze, Jax, + tank + random makes my games a burden to play rather than a pleasure, which I couldn't say about games with normal champs when Kat was still nerfed to hell...


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Cleo

Recruiter

03-02-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bljurg View Post
I think Kat's change to her ultimate made her competitive at least and other upgrades are not necessary. I'd much rather see some characters nerfed than Katarina boosted. These days, seeing parties like Twitch, Ryze, Jax, + tank + random makes my games a burden to play rather than a pleasure, which I couldn't say about games with normal champs when Kat was still nerfed to hell...
That buff was just blowing smoke, it barely did anything. If people get even ONE piece of health or MR, it still does terrible damage. It's only even decent for pubstomping, and that's only if the player is good at it and gets fed. She still needs more work done to make her viable.


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CakeandBacon

Senior Member

03-02-2010

The buff isn't worthless. It DOES increase her DPS when using DL, but it doesn't solve the fact that Kat is entirely reliant on her ult late game for damage, and that using it is unspeakably dangerous. Late game, if you've built your equipment right, it can still do respectable (though still too little, I think) damage.


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Mercurius

Senior Member

03-02-2010

Take alistar on your team to alleviate any problems using your ult mindlessly.
He's mandatory on any team anyway.


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