ashe advice needed

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TasLoL

Senior Member

04-21-2011

anyone good with ashe have some advice on how to play her effectively?

I had a few ranked matches where everyone went AP and we lost. We had the greater number of team kills but we still always ended up losing cus the other team could push turrets faster. So I've decided to master an AD champ for when everyone goes AP. So I picked Ashe since I think her kiting ability is OP at low elo and her arrow can be used to initiate when there's no tank.

My problem with ashe is that I can't get kills. I can hit like a truck and i can kite champs like crazy.. producing a lot of assists, but I am not getting the kills. Do I have to learn to save my volley for the kill? Do I need more attack speed? I admit my cs is low since I haven't gotten mid with her two often, so maybe its a lack of items?

I run AP reds, Mana regen/5 yellows, CDR blues, 2 crit chance quints and 1 health quint. I run 9/0/21 masteries.

I start with dorans blade. Work on berserker boots, then IE, then LW. At some point after boots I may get a life steal item (vampiric scepter i think its called) so I can stay in lane longer.

Any suggestions?


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PMxLightsOut

Senior Member

04-21-2011

Boots 1/Dorans Sheild
BF. Sword
Zerkers Boots
Infinity Edge
Banshees Veil
Black Clever
Blood Thirster
Blood Thirster

You probably won't finish this build unless you are pwning but this is always the order I build and it provides enough attack speed so you can get the kills. Some people perfer a phantom dancer or two but I like my build better because phantom dancers do not provide any ad and when my build is done it hits hits like a truck both with auto attacks and volley.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

04-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TasLoL View Post
anyone good with ashe have some advice on how to play her effectively?
Well, I have quite a bit of great advice on how to play Ashe, but it's in the form of a guide...

You can find it HERE

Quote:
I had a few ranked matches where everyone went AP and we lost. We had the greater number of team kills but we still always ended up losing cus the other team could push turrets faster. So I've decided to master an AD champ for when everyone goes AP. So I picked Ashe since I think her kiting ability is OP at low elo and her arrow can be used to initiate when there's no tank.
Well, at least you know what Ashe should be picked for! Focusing on either her DPS role, Support role, or a mix of the two is the best way to build Ashe.

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My problem with ashe is that I can't get kills. I can hit like a truck and i can kite champs like crazy.. producing a lot of assists, but I am not getting the kills.
Ashe isn't a kill hog. She mostly sets up kills for her teammates. This is GOOD! Yes you need gold, but you can easily get this from farming, whereas some of your teammates who deal tons of damage (or even tanks) have difficulty farming minions, since their damaging abilities are single target nukes. It's a good idea to let them get kills if you can simply farm it up from minions.

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Do I have to learn to save my volley for the kill? Do I need more attack speed?
How you build Ashe is dependent on your goals. I like to build her for either pure DPS and mobility or hybrid DPS & Support. You can also focus only on supporting your allies via vision, low CD's, etc.

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I admit my cs is low since I haven't gotten mid with her two often, so maybe its a lack of items?
I don't think it's a lack of items. As I mentioned before, you don't really need kills to be effective with her. You can do just fine with a couple basic items for farming and the others for supporting. But it depends on how you build her. I'll address your specific build below.

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I run AP reds, Mana regen/5 yellows, CDR blues, 2 crit chance quints and 1 health quint. I run 9/0/21 masteries.
While there is nothing WRONG with this build, it's probably not the most effective. Since Ashe has a passive crit chance on her first attack, it's a bit silly to get more crit chance from quints when there are better options. At least in my opinion.

I would recommend changing out your 2 crit chance quints for more HP quints, OR you could run 3 move speed, OR you can use 3 Apen. All of those options are viable.

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I start with dorans blade.
Great start! If you're doing this, I would use either apen or MS quints.

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Work on berserker boots
Although I used to recommend this item, I am no longer convinced that it is the best option for boots on Ashe. In my personal opinion, Ashe works best with more mobility (Swiftness) or lower cooldowns (Lucidity). Berserker's, Merc, Ninja, & Mobility are simply not of more use than the other two. Berserker's loses effectiveness once you get other AS items. Merc turns a 2.0 sec stun into a 1.2 sec stun...either way you're dead in 90% of situations. Ninja....LOL! Don't get those...you shouldn't allow yourself to be auto-attacked that much. Mobility lose effectiveness since you will lose all that speed as soon as you get hit.

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then IE
Awesome! Best item for DPS Ashe, imo.

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then LW.
Hmmm....not a good choice to go for EVERY game. You only need this if opponents you can actually safely attack are stacking 100+ armor.

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At some point after boots I may get a life steal item (vampiric scepter i think its called) so I can stay in lane longer.
Life steal on Ashe is not useful unless she has high damage AND attack speed.

Since you go with Infinity Edge, you should consider adding Phantom Dancer. The move speed, Attack Speed, and critical chance enhances everything you need...positioning & DPS. Crit chance = more damage more often, especially when combined with IE.

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Any suggestions?
Again, refer to my guide, as well as others to see some typical builds for Ashe.

Good luck!


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TasLoL

Senior Member

04-21-2011

thanks Eledham. Very detailed and customized advice for my situation! Best reply I've ever seen . I'm having trouble writing something back that is half as good!

One thing that you may have overlooked or I didn't mention is that I am at low ELO. So I do feel like I need to get the kills, otherwise the gold is spent unwisely by my bad teammates. So the support build on ashe is not very good at my Elo. I need to carry 2 or 3 teammates hard, not have positive team contribution. I need to be the team.

For that reason and the fact that the enemy is bad, I don't think I need move speed/health quints. I had crit chance quints on hand and I heard that ashes passive isn't that good late game, so I decided crit chance quints would be good. But with your advice, I'll definitely try some ArP quints.

I also haven't considered multiple dorans blade. I read that you recommend them on your guide, so I will try them. But I am not sure that will help me get kills.

You also recommend 22/7/1 masteries. I will give that a try. More offense seems like common sense, but I'd hate to lose the experience/cooldowns/move speed from utility tree. You made me realize that on all my champs I have trouble matching runes, items and masteries. So I am a little weary of changing my masteries so much.

One other thing to consider about my situation is that in low ELO, early laning phase is the most important part of the game. There are so many times (half the games?) when I'll get 2-3 kills early and the opponent will quit or my teammates will die twice and they will quit. So please detail any responses on whether you think it will help for early game or not.

P.S. Reading more of your guide and thinking things out, I'm leaning to getting a ghostblade instead of LW. The increased AS will help me get kills and/or help me take down turrets. You'd be surprised how easy it is to take down turrets even with 5 mia at low ELO.


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Xenarcher

Member

04-21-2011

You should be aware that Ashe hits like a wimp in the early- to mid-game. This means you shouldn't expect to get many kills in team fights until you've got items that give more kick to your attacks. At a minimum, you need to get a BF Sword early on, as it adds +45 AD (and can later be built into IE). Without it, you simply won't be doing much more than support during team fights (which in and of itself is a role that should not be overlooked or underestimated).

When you're not in team fights, be sure to FARM FARM FARM FARM FARM. Don't ever stop farming if you're not needed in a fight. Ashe really doesn't come into her own until she's completed some core items. (in particular, Boots of Swiftness + IE... you'll probably want to get a Zeal/Phantom Dancer in there too after completing IE) You really need to get a lot of gold to become a real DPS threat in fights.

I've seen a lot of guides say that you should start with Doran's Blade, then get Boots of Speed, then rush to IE (prioritizing BF Sword first). This may work for a lot of people, but I've always had a hard time making this build work for myself, since your auto-attacks really don't have much "oomph" to them until you get the BF Sword. I saw a video guide that someone posted here about a month ago suggesting starting with Boots of Speed + health pots instead, and then rushing to a Wriggle's Lantern first. Wriggle's gives some armor for survivability plus some attack damage and life steal, and its passive proc helps immensely with farming. The active also gives you a free vision ward every three minutes, which can help prevent gank attempts against you. After that, the build becomes pretty standard -- rush to IE, then sell off Wriggle's to complete Phantom Dancer. (or if you're farming really well, you may not even have to sell off Wriggle's at that point)

As far as team fights go, Ashe has several important roles to play:

1) Slowing enemy champions: between her Volley and Frost Arrow abilities, Ashe can be a royal pain to the enemy team's mobility. Be sure to slow enemies who are low on health and trying to disengage from the fight. Also, only turn on Frost Arrow for team fights though since it burns through mana pretty quickly.

2) Enchanted Arrow: this is one of the best ultimates in the game, and its uses are many and varied. It's great on offense and defense, and is on a short enough cooldown that it can be used very liberally. Good Ashe players will constantly be aware of what their teammates are up to and will fire well-placed Enchanted Arrows to turn the tide of combat from anywhere on the map.

3) DPS: as stated before, don't expect to get many kills until you've got some significant AD. If you haven't got much AD yet, focus more on (1) and (2) above during team fights. Once you've got some respectable AD, focus/kite vulnerable enemy champs.


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TasLoL

Senior Member

04-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenarcher View Post
You should be aware that Ashe hits like a wimp in the early- to mid-game. This means you shouldn't expect to get many kills in team fights until you've got items that give more kick to your attacks. At a minimum, you need to get a BF Sword early on, as it adds +45 AD (and can later be built into IE). Without it, you simply won't be doing much more than support during team fights (which in and of itself is a role that should not be overlooked or underestimated).

When you're not in team fights, be sure to FARM FARM FARM FARM FARM. Don't ever stop farming if you're not needed in a fight. Ashe really doesn't come into her own until she's completed some core items. (in particular, Boots of Swiftness + IE... you'll probably want to get a Zeal/Phantom Dancer in there too after completing IE) You really need to get a lot of gold to become a real DPS threat in fights.

I've seen a lot of guides say that you should start with Doran's Blade, then get Boots of Speed, then rush to IE (prioritizing BF Sword first). This may work for a lot of people, but I've always had a hard time making this build work for myself, since your auto-attacks really don't have much "oomph" to them until you get the BF Sword. I saw a video guide that someone posted here about a month ago suggesting starting with Boots of Speed + health pots instead, and then rushing to a Wriggle's Lantern first. Wriggle's gives some armor for survivability plus some attack damage and life steal, and its passive proc helps immensely with farming. The active also gives you a free vision ward every three minutes, which can help prevent gank attempts against you. After that, the build becomes pretty standard -- rush to IE, then sell off Wriggle's to complete Phantom Dancer. (or if you're farming really well, you may not even have to sell off Wriggle's at that point)

As far as team fights go, Ashe has several important roles to play:

1) Slowing enemy champions: between her Volley and Frost Arrow abilities, Ashe can be a royal pain to the enemy team's mobility. Be sure to slow enemies who are low on health and trying to disengage from the fight. Also, only turn on Frost Arrow for team fights though since it burns through mana pretty quickly.

2) Enchanted Arrow: this is one of the best ultimates in the game, and its uses are many and varied. It's great on offense and defense, and is on a short enough cooldown that it can be used very liberally. Good Ashe players will constantly be aware of what their teammates are up to and will fire well-placed Enchanted Arrows to turn the tide of combat from anywhere on the map.

3) DPS: as stated before, don't expect to get many kills until you've got some significant AD. If you haven't got much AD yet, focus more on (1) and (2) above during team fights. Once you've got some respectable AD, focus/kite vulnerable enemy champs.
I find ashe pretty strong early game and definitely very strong mid game once she gets ult. Early game its too easy to wait until the enemies cd and just keep auto attacking with Q as they retreat. Then just rinse and repeat until they die or go to base.

But what other AD (preferably ranged) champ would you say is stronger early game and still decent late game?


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KoreanRacials

Senior Member

04-21-2011

run between attacks => insta pro ashe


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Xenarcher

Member

04-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TasLoL View Post
I find ashe pretty strong early game and definitely very strong mid game once she gets ult. Early game its too easy to wait until the enemies cd and just keep auto attacking with Q as they retreat. Then just rinse and repeat until they die or go to base.

But what other AD (preferably ranged) champ would you say is stronger early game and still decent late game?
Although Ashe has sustained DPS, she's not very bursty early on, so in team fights, you'll more often get assists rather than kills. One-on-one situations are somewhat different if you can land your ult and get several hits in before the stun wears off.

I'm not saying that Ashe is not a strong ranged AD champ. In fact, she's probably the best of them. But there are far burstier characters out there, which means that Ashe is going to have a hard time securing kills (versus assists) in early-game team fights.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

04-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TasLoL View Post
thanks Eledham. Very detailed and customized advice for my situation! Best reply I've ever seen . I'm having trouble writing something back that is half as good!
I'm glad my post has helped you out! I'll do my best to repeat my success!

Quote:
One thing that you may have overlooked or I didn't mention is that I am at low ELO. So I do feel like I need to get the kills, otherwise the gold is spent unwisely by my bad teammates. So the support build on ashe is not very good at my Elo. I need to carry 2 or 3 teammates hard, not have positive team contribution. I need to be the team.
I know it sounds crazy for carrying your team, but try the Queen Build in my guide. It's specially designed to be mean to your opponent starting at level 1. Use your early game advantage (which most people don't expect on Ashe) to propel you into your lategame build.

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For that reason and the fact that the enemy is bad, I don't think I need move speed/health quints. I had crit chance quints on hand and I heard that ashes passive isn't that good late game, so I decided crit chance quints would be good. But with your advice, I'll definitely try some ArP quints.
First off....

Ashe's passive is freakin awesome late game! 18% extra crit chance every 3 seconds @ level 18? YES PLEASE!!! If you have IE & PD...you have 55% crit chance. Throw in a green elixir and the mastery, and you are at 65% passive crit chance. What this means for her passive is that you are sitting on 83% crit chance after waiting a measly 3 seconds between attacks. Note that Volley doesn't affect the timer, so you can poke away for 6 seconds, then have an auto-critical...it's fun!

As for your choice of crit chance quints, it's better to get quints for stats that are more difficult to obtain or that fill a void in your particular build. That's why I usually go with move speed, HP, or Apen.

Now, if you're solo mid, you don't really NEED the move speed quints. If you're not having trouble out-harassing, then you don't need the HP quints either. I think you should expect to get both eventually, but they're not necessary to perform well. In that case, the Apen are the next best choice. They will allow you to keep your targets at minimum armor for much longer...

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I also haven't considered multiple dorans blade. I read that you recommend them on your guide, so I will try them. But I am not sure that will help me get kills.
Starting with a Doran's Blade, then being able to fall back on 2 more with your boots 2 will give you more damage than a Pickaxe or Brutalizer, as well as an extra 300 HP. You also get 12% lifesteal with 3. Trust me, you're a force to be reckoned with at level 9 with 3 Doran's.

It's not something you intentionally build for, but something that you use to help recover from a slow start due to a side lane, or getting ganked/zoned/based.

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You also recommend 22/7/1 masteries. I will give that a try. More offense seems like common sense, but I'd hate to lose the experience/cooldowns/move speed from utility tree. You made me realize that on all my champs I have trouble matching runes, items and masteries. So I am a little weary of changing my masteries so much.
You mentioned that you need to focus on the DPS side of Ashe. The Queen build is designed to get you there as quickly (and safely) as possible. You'll be rushing IE followed by PD with at least boots 1 tossed in the mix ASAP. I regularly get IE & Boots 2 in under 20 minutes...with a build that's not designed to rush IE. With the Queen build, it's possible to get IE & Boots 2 at about 15 minutes if you snag a few kills early on. This makes your opponents cry rivers of blood!

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One other thing to consider about my situation is that in low ELO, early laning phase is the most important part of the game. There are so many times (half the games?) when I'll get 2-3 kills early and the opponent will quit or my teammates will die twice and they will quit. So please detail any responses on whether you think it will help for early game or not.
If you are already getting kills early on...you REALLY need to try the Queen Build. It'll feed you more kills than you can comprehend if you have never tried it or seen it done.

For example...I recently used that build to kill a Heimerdinger (the most insane lane controller/pusher ever made) 5 times before team fighting started...I think I had 5 kills prior to 15 minutes. At that point, I was so fed, it really didn't matter what they did...I destroyed everyone and had like 25 kills and 2 deaths.

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P.S. Reading more of your guide and thinking things out, I'm leaning to getting a ghostblade instead of LW. The increased AS will help me get kills and/or help me take down turrets. You'd be surprised how easy it is to take down turrets even with 5 mia at low ELO.
Well, you have an issue with splitting your focus. If you go with Ghostblade, you're getting more into the CDR side, which is focused on support. You'd be better off getting Zeal and upgrading it into PD ASAP. The reason for this is mobility, damage, and attack speed.

You see...once you get IE, any additional crit chance you obtain increases your average base damage per attack more than most other options.

Ghostblade grants similar results, but PD gives you passive move and attack speed instead of active, which is more useful overall. I would recommend getting GB after PD if you need more Apen. You can always get Black Cleaver as well for more Apen, but if your targets are over 100 armor, you really want to go with LW instead.


As a final note in this response...keep an eye on my guide. I'm in the process of updating it with some new findings and concepts that you might find interesting.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

04-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenarcher View Post
Although Ashe has sustained DPS, she's not very bursty early on, so in team fights, you'll more often get assists rather than kills. One-on-one situations are somewhat different if you can land your ult and get several hits in before the stun wears off.
This is just silly...

At level 1 with Doran's and Offensive masteries, Ashe's opening burst is roughly 60 AD * 3 (auto critical + Volley) + 40 from Volley + 60 more for 2nd attack.

180 + 40 + 60 = 280 opening burst damage (not counting the 5% extra damage). This damage is usually almost the final value due to the fact that Apen from runes will handle most champs' starting armor.

That's over half most solo mid champions' starting health.

Building to take advantage of this is what my Queen Build is designed to do....and keep you safe while you do it.

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I'm not saying that Ashe is not a strong ranged AD champ. In fact, she's probably the best of them. But there are far burstier characters out there, which means that Ashe is going to have a hard time securing kills (versus assists) in early-game team fights.
There are not more bursty ranged AD champs out there...at least not at level 1.

Once you get to later game, sure, but builds are so different by that point, it's a trivial comparison.