Who Should Mid? Guide/Discussion

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Goodguy Hopper

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Senior Member

04-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgemonster View Post
1. The correct plural for Karthus is "Karthi" :-P

2. This is, of course, assuming your Karthus is competent. It is an incredibly difficult thing to attempt to compare how two champions would fare against each other if both of their summoners are at the same skill level: in this situation, we both believe that our own champion would prevail. Our only recourse is to look at their skills and stats, compare them to the goals of a midder, and try to determine who would win out. I would suggest Karthus here, both because his harass costs less, has much lower CD, and can be used even when the enemy is behind creeps, unlike Ashe's harass, and because while they both have global ults, Karthus' is much easier to hit with. I'd love to hear a response though, I'm not above changing my mind.

Up until now, this thread has mostly been solely a response to OP's post. Since a lot of people seem to have disagreements, however, I think it'd be very informative to try and compile a list of what are the considerations that should go into who takes mid, so that anyone who sees this thread can easily pick up that information. A large part of this will be which of the few goals do you guys think is most important, so feel free to weigh in.

To start us off, here is a brief list (largely adapted from gom99 in this thread: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...=671259&page=5)

What are the goals to mid?
1) Don't die
2) Level quickly
3) Farm a lot
4) Find opportunity to gank (side lanes)
5) Shut down the enemy midder

I would suggest that as far as priority goes, it looks like this four tier model:

1) Don't die
1) Shut down the enemy mid
2) Farm a lot
3) Level quickly
4) Find opportunity to gank (side lanes)

in short, first priority is gain relative advantage over their mid; second priority is money; third priority is getting stronger; fourth priority is helping the other lanes.

I haven't thought hard about this so it could be all wrong, that's just a quick starting place. What are your guys' thoughts?
I'd like to weigh in here by saying that i think mid should be given to the most level/gold dependent character. Some characters are more level/gold dependent then others for example most supports do not need a whole lot of money, or for example alistar is very level independent. If i needed to make a priority list for mid though it would go something like this
1) Don't Die!
2) lane positioning (be able to abuse lane advantage by zoning or be able to play around zoning)
3) Strong team fight potential
4) Active ability to threaten opposing champ
5) Ability to do turret damage
6) ability to farm well


Ok so from my mid ideally i want them to be safe they should have an idea of when junglers will gank and be prepared to escape them. Additionally i expect them to know how to zone really well against other champs (whether that be defensive zoning getting last hits through an offensive player or offensive zoning denying creep kills without over extending) After that i want my mid to have very strong team fight potential. They are going to be the teams highest level most developed champion and i really want them to be able to rip through the opposing teams health bars. I feel who you chose to mid is an investment in the mid and late game. They need the ability to threaten the opposing champion by having burst potential that deters the opposition from putting pressure under turret range. They need the ability to push down a turret thereby freeing themselves up for supporting other lanes and of course scoring a tower kill when it doesn't take a team fight to get one. The final and least important point is the ability to farm well, getting a solo lane opens up the ability to get a lot of creep kills to yourself, and a character should be able to take advantage of that but it is much lower on the priority list from the rest of the goals.

also ashe's harass comes from double/tripple arrowing people when they get aggressive (see them approaching click on frost arrow click them at range hit them 2-3 times while they are on recharge with their skill) then follow it up with volley if they leave themselves to open. this method conserves mana and really only uses volley after they are slowed and you are guaranteed that extra punishment.


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KRYPTØNITE

Senior Member

04-20-2011

Anyone who calls mid first should have it. The problem in normal games is that a lot of people instalock melee champs, so mid is screwed up from the start.


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SlithyTove

Junior Member

04-20-2011

I would add Urgot to the list of mid champs, Very few champs can harass and zone like Urgot can.


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Eppa

Senior Member

04-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa Riel View Post
Apparently the general consensus here is that people do not like what i had to say, however i have yet to read a solid counter argument. The most insightful bit i have read thus far was from hedgemonster who reminded me about Karthus and to consider that he is very often mid. Thus far no one has really discredited the rule of thumb i put forth.

@Eppa I ran the article through a spellchecker and cleaned it up a bit sorry about that.

also @Eppa there are times when kassadin does belong in middle, and Kassadin is a strong champion however he is not a carry. Yes, he can carry a team but any champion can carry a team if they are fed. Kassadin's late game damage is not comparable to that of ranged AD champs. In the end Kassadin is really more of an assassin ideally designed to take the AP carry out of the team fight and then like any assassin play cleanup afterward. In summary, yes kassadin has times he should mid he does not however have the same all encompassing claim of "I should mid" that Ashe or Tristana have. Also of note is that riot had intended for Caitlyn to be a powerhouse in the late game like all Ranged AD carries and they have been working to correct that, see recent patch notes or review her design concept.
Single target damage is not very highly valued late game, Burst is. In the end Kassadin does more for the team than ranged carries do most of the time. Gold is a factor in mid but xp and possibility to assist lanes are other ones. This is especially true in less coordinated game when it is easier to gank were the game is mid game centred anyway.

With the recent and up coming nerfs to tanky dps burst is going to be even stronger.


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ThoseAboutToRock

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Senior Member

04-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa Riel View Post
2. Your AD carry is going to need a whole **** load of money to be affective.
Did you mean effective?


In other news, I think match ups do matter.
What if Teemo is their mid?
What if Kass is their solo top-lane vs your solo top-lane AP?

In a vacuum, it is not possible to determine who should properly mid, and I think trying to arbitrarily assign the job is an incorrect philosophy.


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ThoseAboutToRock

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Senior Member

04-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eppa View Post
Single target damage is not very highly valued late game, Burst is. In the end Kassadin does more for the team than ranged carries do most of the time. Gold is a factor in mid but xp and possibility to assist lanes are other ones. This is especially true in less coordinated game when it is easier to gank were the game is mid game centred anyway.

With the recent and up coming nerfs to tanky dps burst is going to be even stronger.
I partially disagree with this. Single target damage, from AD sources, blow towers up. Towers -> Nexus is how you win, team fights simply supplement that. If you can't win a team fight late game, but you can successfully defend (and we've all been there) a strong AD tower-pushing machine is groovy. Especially someone like Trist who can escape.


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nuthusk

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Senior Member

04-21-2011

depends on the teams
its prefered the carry mid but u gt to be flexible
had great success as yi, xinzhao, nocturne, taric, melee advantage.
u can farm well in sidelanes if u pick a good lanemate and mid is ur worst enemy (kat vs vlad)


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Praedoran

Senior Member

04-21-2011

There's also the occasional Mid-Pusher tactic. Toppling that particular tower gives a lot of global positioning strength. Sivir was one of the best Solo-mid champs back in the day. She had excellent harass, good farm, and a deadly skillshot, but she also pushed like nobody's business. Once that tower went down, team fight phase always began in full swing.


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Goodguy Hopper

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Senior Member

04-21-2011

I think we are drifting away from the idea of the original post, largely my fault i wasn't clear enough. I am aware you should consider match ups in fact i did talk about it briefly in the original post. What i am getting at is that in normal games people have a tendency to just call mid during champion selection before you have even seen the other team. In this scenario where you have yet to see the other teams line who has the most claim to mid? Again i still maintain it is the ranged AD carry. This continuous mentioning of you should consider the match ups is fairly obvious guys i really don't need to hear it repeated over and over (had you read the original argument you would know i knew that).

Flat question-
given no knowledge of the other team who has the most claim to mid?

@eppa- correct me if i'm wrong here but i thought they where going ot nerf some of the initial damage from tanky dps that wont really do anything to their ability to survive a burst. Also single target damage is fairly well superior in the late game it is the reason a good team will try and prio the AD carry in the late game. Let me really lay it out for you. If you prio Kennen he is still going to ult and blow through hi aiblities and if you blow him up in a timely fashion you may have cut off a third of his total damage. Why? because all his damage comes in a 3 second packet. Now if they have a fully built ashe she is going to play clean up on your team and easily in fact she is going to end up doing more damage then kennen would have even if you had not prio'ed either. Now if you prio Ashe they may bot have the damage to clean up your whole team and after kennen has blown his load he really can not do much more to your team. (more to follow i have to get to class)


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kronos368

Senior Member

06-04-2011

i'd like to know why veigar isn't in the #1 priority for mid. Surely with his ap needs early game (yes i know he's squishy as hell but i always do fine) for baleful kills he requires mid above all else? just my opinon. but others are welcome


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