How-To Request: Rough Lanes

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CuddleBunni

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Senior Member

04-17-2011

Okay, apparently, despite all my practice and time spent learning about the ins and outs of this game, I am "terrible" ~My Last Team. I'll cut right to the chase and give an example in this scenario:

Setting: Summoner's Rift
Champion: Tristana
Match: Solo Queue Ranked Rating: 1450-1550

Runes: 9 ArP Marks
Seals: 6 Mana Regen/5 per Level, 3 Flat HP
Glyphs: 9 Flat Magic Resist
Quints: 3 ArP

Masteries: 21/0/9

Top lane vs. Cho'Gath, enemy team has a roaming Evelynn. I buy a Vampiric Scepter first with the following reasoning: instead of having the one-time survivability that Doran's Blade offers, I can fill up in between ganks, and an upgrade to Emblem of Valor for 5% more lifesteal and the hp regen is fairly cheap.

The game starts, no level 1 team-fight, so I head to my lane. 3 minutes in, I am winning by 5cs due to cho's late arrival to the lane. 30 seconds later, Evelynn's first gank, she stuns me and cho lay's down Rupture, but its too late, I have a moment in between to jump back to safety with half of my health remaining, Eve goes into the forward bush, I call for a gank but our Rammus has only 15% hp and I decide it would be for the best that he didn't.

I notice Eve gank mid, so I am safe to continue farming. With the pot shot's I took at the melee minion's I am still keeping up with Cho in cs, we are now even, give or take a couple. 3 minutes later, another unsuccessful gank by Eve, this time Cho leads with his silence so I cannot jump in between stuns, however I still manage to get away with around 30 hp, so I leave to buy my Emblem of Valor and 2 health pots, deciding it would be for the best to keep the minions as close to my tower as possible.

When I get back to the lane, Cho has vorpal spikes, a relief because he will now push the lane harder than I, assuming he doesn't turn them off (and he didn't), because I had only gotten 1 level in explosive shot for that reason. Eve ganks Rammus in the jungle, I run to help, but she kills him before I get there and manages to get me low enough for a Cho feast with the bonus heal from her ult. I shouldn't have tried to help, self acknowledged mistake #1.

At this point Cho is ~10 cs ahead of me (82cs to 90cs), I buy Merc Treads in hopes of reducing Eve's stun enough to jump before Rupture if I am not silenced. Cho leaves the lane, I call MIA, and Rammus is once again ganked in the jungle, I warn him that it is probably warded, but now I have a Cho'Gath with red buff in my lane, so I say "I can't do this anymore, I need help" no answer.

I manage to stay alive from then on by hugging the tower, Evelynn had been ganking bot, and now Anivia left to help. Sivir pushes down our mid tower, but Anivia gets several kills. Anivia finally responds to my request for help and comes top, but it is too late, Cho has purchased a banshee's veil and is all but impervious to our harassment. We get him low and take the tower to half health, but that is all we could do. Cho is now ~20 cs ahead of me (94cs to 111 cs).

At this point my team starts harassing me, but in solo q I am used to the blame game so I didn't let it get to me. I have no kills, no assists, and 3 or 4 deaths, so I make a motion for teamfights to begin, because we are still ahead on kills due to fed Anivia. My team pressures me into starting to buy Madred's Bloodrazor, even though I feel Infinity Edge is a better item 95% of the time, even against farmed Cho. After losing a teamfight, the team blames Cho being fed on the outcome. (I don't understand how it makes a difference if he purchased zero damage items and was only 1 base level higher than me.)

After another 5 minutes, we are definitively losing, due to the purchase of the 3 pieces of Madred's Bloodrazor, I feel my damage is lackluster against the bulky champions they had like Irelia and WW compared to what it would have been with a near completed Infinity Edge. With my lack of kills and assists I otherwise have no other gear besides Emblem of Valor and Merc Treads and can only teamfight after using my jump to position myself in safety, like the other side of a wall.

I ask my team mates a serious question amidst their flaming: "Honestly, what could I have done better?" the only answers I received were: "Don't suck" and "Buy pink wards, 125 gold makes eve useless!" I told them I did not buy pink wards because before Rammus died twice in the jungle, their burst was typically not enough to finish me off before I could make the short jump to safety and my Emblem of Valor had my health back up in no time.

So, I ask for people who will troll me less than my "allies" to answer a few questions:

1. Is emblem of valor really completely useless compared to Doran's Blade or Doran's Shield?

2. How should one go about laning against medium-high burst (at low levels) tanks as a ranged dps with low early-game threat level? Are there any effective ways to zone them out anyways? (without requiring an early advantage from a jungle gank or something)

3. In the above game, what could I have done better? Other than the acknowledged mistakes.

EDIT: Sorry this is such a book, I'm sure I missed plenty of typos and such in here somewhere!


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creamfrache

Senior Member

04-17-2011

im not even ranked but perhaps i can help =/

i think trist has a pretty weak early game due to her range so perhaps a dorans shield was a better choice when you found out you were up against a touch lane assignment like cho

you should more focused on farming as an ad ranged carry than harass, take potshots when they make a mistake, but #1 priority should be farming

your jungle rammus was just bad imo =/

infinity edge is a better choice than bloodrazor


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Majulio

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Senior Member

04-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuddleBunni View Post
1. Is emblem of valor really completely useless compared to Doran's Blade or Doran's Shield?

2. How should one go about laning against medium-high burst (at low levels) tanks as a ranged dps with low early-game threat level? Are there any effective ways to zone them out anyways? (without requiring an early advantage from a jungle gank or something)

3. In the above game, what could I have done better? Other than the acknowledged mistakes.

EDIT: Sorry this is such a book, I'm sure I missed plenty of typos and such in here somewhere!
1) Not a good starting item, IMHO, if you want the Emblem early, i'd suggest to start with the rejuvenating bead and 6 HP pots.

2) Hug your tower, and when you're under it, unleash all you have over the enemy, that will usually make him back off.

3) Don't listen to your teammates if you really thing that your build is a better idea... IDK how much of the IE you had, but if you already had BF sword, with the gold you needed to get Madred's, you could've gotten IE and Last whisper, and with that, it's pretty much GG, it doesn't matter how fed that Cho was.


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Silent Reaper

Senior Member

04-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuddleBunni View Post
1. Is emblem of valor really completely useless compared to Doran's Blade or Doran's Shield?

2. How should one go about laning against medium-high burst (at low levels) tanks as a ranged dps with low early-game threat level? Are there any effective ways to zone them out anyways? (without requiring an early advantage from a jungle gank or something)

3. In the above game, what could I have done better? Other than the acknowledged mistakes.

EDIT: Sorry this is such a book, I'm sure I missed plenty of typos and such in here somewhere!
1) No it isn't useless. However for my case for instance I sometimes like stacking 2 or even 3 Dorans Blades as the extra health, lifesteal and damage is increadibly useful early game! (Also it makes last hitting a breeze)

2) In low levels the best thing you want to do is buy maybe 1-2 wards (for this situation). As a ranged Dps focus on last hitting all time. When you are not last hitting, harass the **** out of them, anytime you can. Once your lane is pushed a bit, put a ward in the bush close to your tower. If you see them camping in there poke them more and more. Keep doing it until they are low in health. Trust me, after a while it takes out all thier health.
As a ranged you have to exploit the range as much as possible. Poke them when they can't poke you, etc. Last hit when they can't get to you. As a lane combo Ranged Dps need to, if possible get Flat Runes early game so they are not too vulnerable to harassement and such. If you are still getting alot of your health taken out, invest in maybe 1-3 health potions.

3) Although Dorans Blade and Dorans Shield are "bad items" because they cannot build into anything and such, you should still consider getting them! These items are meant to make the early game laning phase which is curcial to ranged dps to be alot easier and safer. Stacking for example 1-3 Dorans Blades may seem very inefficient but thinking about it in prespective. You get early game Damage, Lifesteal (for sustainable laning phase) AND you get extra health so you can get bursted down in teamfights. Just try it out once or twice, maybe you'll like it
P.s. As Ranged Dps you should usually go
Ghost + Flash


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CuddleBunni

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Senior Member

04-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majulio View Post
1) Not a good starting item, IMHO, if you want the Emblem early, i'd suggest to start with the rejuvenating bead and 6 HP pots.

I never really thought it this, it is a good idea though. I think I would prefer Doran's Shield over this though, which in way makes me think I should get Doran's Shield over the Vampiric Scepter, if I feel Doran's Blade won't offer what I need.

2) Hug your tower, and when you're under it, unleash all you have over the enemy, that will usually make him back off.

Hugging the tower wasn't really an option because Cho knew how not to push, I would miss out on 3 or 4 minions worth of experience each wave. I tend to use this strategy in mid where there is less room to miss out on exp, but at top it wasn't really an option.

3) Don't listen to your teammates if you really thing that your build is a better idea... IDK how much of the IE you had, but if you already had BF sword, with the gold you needed to get Madred's, you could've gotten IE and Last whisper, and with that, it's pretty much GG, it doesn't matter how fed that Cho was.

All I had at the time was Emblem of Valor and Mercury Treads, it was fairly early in the game. Thing is they are both about the same price now with the BF Sword and Cloak of Agility changes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Reaper View Post
1) No it isn't useless. However for my case for instance I sometimes like stacking 2 or even 3 Dorans Blades as the extra health, lifesteal and damage is increadibly useful early game! (Also it makes last hitting a breeze)

2) In low levels the best thing you want to do is buy maybe 1-2 wards (for this situation). As a ranged Dps focus on last hitting all time. When you are not last hitting, harass the **** out of them, anytime you can. Once your lane is pushed a bit, put a ward in the bush close to your tower. If you see them camping in there poke them more and more. Keep doing it until they are low in health. Trust me, after a while it takes out all thier health.
As a ranged you have to exploit the range as much as possible. Poke them when they can't poke you, etc. Last hit when they can't get to you. As a lane combo Ranged Dps need to, if possible get Flat Runes early game so they are not too vulnerable to harassement and such. If you are still getting alot of your health taken out, invest in maybe 1-3 health potions.

If it was just about any other tank, I would have been okay with this. However the combined threat of Evelynn and Cho'Gath's passive healing, after level 4 I could not harass him anymore, so I retired to only last hitting and hiding.

3) Although Dorans Blade and Dorans Shield are "bad items" because they cannot build into anything and such, you should still consider getting them! These items are meant to make the early game laning phase which is curcial to ranged dps to be alot easier and safer. Stacking for example 1-3 Dorans Blades may seem very inefficient but thinking about it in prespective. You get early game Damage, Lifesteal (for sustainable laning phase) AND you get extra health so you can get bursted down in teamfights. Just try it out once or twice, maybe you'll like it

I usually start with Doran's Blade, and always get at least 2 unless I get fed. I just feel it doesn't offer the same sustainability against a champion with decent burst but high cooldowns.

P.s. As Ranged Dps you should usually go
Ghost + Flash

I always get Ghost + Flash with MF or Ashe, but since Tristana has a built in escape, I usually choose only one and get either Exhaust or Ignite for my second spell. In this case however, I regret not getting both.
Thanks, this is some valuable information I will keep it in mind.


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FaIIenOne

Senior Member

04-17-2011

The idea here is to last hit under your turret and have them push too you if it may occur where you will have a hard time escaping.

Note about tower hugging , IF your getting harassed and they aren't literally diving you , you need to work on positioning.

If you want to use a vamperic sceptor , You need to balance your build out , That build relies on you auto attacking. Either run HP runes/Defensive masteries , or HP regen runes , you need something that will keep your HP high.


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CuddleBunni

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Senior Member

04-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by xXFallen OneXx View Post
The idea here is to last hit under your turret and have them push too you if it may occur where you will have a hard time escaping.

Note about tower hugging , IF your getting harassed and they aren't literally diving you , you need to work on positioning.

If you want to use a vamperic sceptor , You need to balance your build out , That build relies on you auto attacking. Either run HP runes/Defensive masteries , or HP regen runes , you need something that will keep your HP high.
I apologize if that works in higher level gameplay, but at my level, if anyone is good at last hitting, and you're cursed with a bad jungler, no more than 2-3 creeps will ever even reach your tower. But that level of zoning did not happen this game, that is another story.


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Terrorship

Senior Member

04-19-2011

Focus on last hitting is probably the best you can do.

or, Risky but since you said you were zoned anyway -
Get a purple ward and help Rammus trap/gank eve in the jungle.

It was all just over-extending. You can't turn a bad lane into a good lane by over-extending.
Your team was effectively down their jungler. That's where most of the pressure came from. Over-extending cannot fix that. Starting items can be nit-picked, but even with other items you aren't going to out-harass Cho with an Eve running around unchecked early game.

If you have a rough lane, or need an edge on the lane, your jungler or mid can help. If they don't or can't, not much more that I can imagine that you can do other than survive the lane. Alternatively, a different champ pick may have worked, but that depends on what other champs you are comfortable playing.

I can't imagine with Rammus losing jungle and roaming Eve that if you had ended that laning phase with less CS but no deaths (or 1) that you'd have been doing "bad".


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DA

Senior Member

04-19-2011

The doran's blade is to assist in last hitting as it gives you a touch more attack and makes it easier. The mild lifesteal is to recoop mild harass at best. You dont buy the blade mainly for the lifesteal. HP + more damage

vamp scepter means you are pushing your lane. (you are autoattcking to heal = pushing)

you needing a vamp scepter to fill up between ganks means you are pushing your lane. (they see an opportunity)

Take home note: Stop. Pushing. Your. Lane.

If you are only firing a bullet for the last hit on cs and an occasional harass on your opponent... trist is very very hard to gank.


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Rrbhaunoch

Senior Member

04-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOA Monkey View Post
The doran's blade is to assist in last hitting as it gives you a touch more attack and makes it easier. The mild lifesteal is to recoop mild harass at best. You dont buy the blade mainly for the lifesteal. HP + more damage

vamp scepter means you are pushing your lane. (you are autoattcking to heal = pushing)

you needing a vamp scepter to fill up between ganks means you are pushing your lane. (they see an opportunity)

Take home note: Stop. Pushing. Your. Lane.

If you are only firing a bullet for the last hit on cs and an occasional harass on your opponent... trist is very very hard to gank.
^this


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