Lee Sin: A Lengthly Criticism

12345 ... 6
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

White River

Member

04-16-2011

Hi there.

I've been avidly playing Lee since he went free, and I can honestly say I'm very disappointed. I was gonna save up enough and buy him, as he semed like a fun hero with a unique style of play. Well, he is **** fun to play, but only in the early game; AKA when he doesn't suck. I've tried building him as a tanky DPS, and straight up DPS. I've tried going Trinity Force and skipping it.

This is the most average that I have ever done with any character. I can't say I've actually done badly with him--I've never fed. I've come close, though, and I've certainly never been real helpful. In the early game I can actually make a difference. I even got a triple kill once. Unfortunately, the triple kill was wasted on me, because as late game arrived, I went on to do what Lee Sin does best--average. This is what I've seen from other Lees, too. I've never seen a great one, only good-"Ish." And keep in mind, I don't even dare trying to do ranked with Lee Sin. I'd get stomped.

One thing I've noticed is that Lee Sin takes longer to deal his damage, even though I think he's designed to be a burst damage hero. If you want to get the most out of Lee, you've gotta time his abilities. Going through a whole combo takes about 10 seconds or so, if you want to maximize the damage, that is. Problem is, I'm dead in 5. I can last longer if I build as a tank, but then I give up my burst--it's a catch-22. And his shield? Why does that scale with AP? What on earth? His other 3 abilities scale 1:1 with AD, but his one ability that gives him some survivability is gimped because it scales with AP. The only AP any decent Lee is going to get is from Trinity Force. And I think that's, what, 30? So that's cool, an extra 30 on the shield. Oh wait a minute, the shield doesn't even scale with a 1:1 ratio, so I'm actually getting around 25 extra HP on the shield. That's sure to help me survive Veigar's 1k damage ult.

So, solutions.

Because of the way his abilities work, he needs a faster base attack speed. I'm not asking for a huge increase, but his passive should at least be able to put him over 1.0. Maybe increase the attack speed from the passive? Say, 75%? Maybe give a passive attack speed increase to one of his abilities--Like Udyr's Tiger Stance. Hell, the passive effect could be on his ult, and it would only have to be, say, 10% per level to be noticeable, and extremely useful. I would gladly trade the 1:1 scaling of his abilities for extra attack speed. I'd do it in a **** heart beat.

Make his shield, like the rest of his abilities, scale with AD. I can't even imagine why one of his abilities scales with AP. I can't think of any possible reason for this. I mean, he doesn't even use mana! What the what?! Okay, 3 of Shen's abilities scale with AP and he too uses energy, but that's 3 abilities compared to Lee's 1. So if a Shen invests in some AP, it's not going to just a single ability. I could justify getting more AP items if AP affected more of Lee's abilities... so maybe instead of a 1:1 scaling with AD on his abilities, make it .5 for both AD and AP. More hybrid characters would be awesome, too.

That's really all I can think of as of right now. But I think implementing those changes would actually turn him into a useful hero. Again, I wanna stress how much fun I'm having with Lee Sin. This is just seriously hampered by how much he, well, sucks.

TL;DR: Pahahahaha. As if.

Best regards, gentlemen, ladies.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lukrezia

Senior Member

04-16-2011

he just doesn't have that finishing power that other assassins have (akali, xin zhao, pantheon etc). seems more like a tanky dps if anything.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

White River

Member

04-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukrezia View Post
he just doesn't have that finishing power that other assassins have (akali, xin zhao, pantheon etc). seems more like a tanky dps if anything.
Yeah, that's the problem. He feels a bit like a tanky DPS, but he's supposed to be an assassin. And he's not even a good tanky DPS. He is in beaten in every aspect by other heroes.

His burst is completely destroyed by pretty much all the heroes you mentioned (+ others), and his sustained damage, survivability and crowd control are beaten by the champions who are supposed to be tanky DPS. In his current state he's just not good at anything, and definitely not worth the hefty price tag. He's just a speedy meat shield with no meat. A veggie shield, if you will. *Shudder*.

Maybe they were going for a cross between tanky DPS and burst, which sounds nice, but clearly doesn't work in practice.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

zxlkcf

Senior Member

04-16-2011

If this is lengthy I'd hate to see what a book is to you. Seriously though,

- Needs a higher Attack Speed or a better Steroid
- To use your CC, you need to get up close, resulting in either surprising them or getting your skillshot right, which for some reason, has a tiny-ass hitbox.
- Energy costs mean you can only cast 3-4 spells without running out for others.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

White River

Member

04-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatsGay View Post
If this is lengthy I'd hate to see what a book is to you.
You probably wouldn't know it, but I actually do like to read. Not the books that people consider classics, though. No, I read trash and comedy books mostly. :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatsGay View Post
- Needs a higher Attack Speed or a better Steroid
- To use your CC, you need to get up close, resulting in either surprising them or getting your skillshot right, which for some reason, has a tiny-ass hitbox.
- Energy costs mean you can only cast 3-4 spells without running out for others.
1: I agree. I addressed this a bit in the apparently-not-lengthly-at-all OP.

2: You know, I was gonna mention this, but I wasn't sure. I guess I'll go ahead. Myself, and it seems most other Lee's only use the roundhouse for killing blows, the occasional interrupt, and knocking enemies into/away from towers. The knock up is always, always, an after thought. As you mention, if you try to position correctly, for maximum knock uppage, you're just wasting time. If they made the knock up longer, it might persuade people, myself included, to try to position a little better. A long knock up, and a 2:1 AD scaling is a bit much, so maybe they could nerf the AD scaling.

3: I've never really had a problem with energy. If you're spamming your skills as soon as they're up, then obviously you're gonna run out quickly. You use an abiltity, auto attack twice, and activate the next. This is one reason he sucks at burst. All his abilities (save ult) cost 100 energy (If you hit 'em twice). And if you're not auto attacking between hits, you run out after 2, pretty weak abilities, which obviously is not good for burst. If you take the time to auto attack and keep your energy up, due to his ****ty attack speed your burst sucks. Lose lose. Thing is, I kinda feel like the way he uses energy is a unique part of him. If they decreased his energy costs, it make the passive energy refund worthless. I guess they could replace it with something else, though.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lord Melons

Senior Member

04-16-2011

i have played Lee Sin a good bit lately,and i'm sorry but dude you must be doing something wrong like tanky Lee Sin works GREAT that is if you do it right,start off with merc or tabi depending on what you need for the team and then get a chain vest,warmog's,chain best>atma's,FoN and from then on you'll usually be fine health and damage wise also prioritize your shield early game i go q,w,e,w,w,r,e,q,w,e,r,q,e,q,e,r,q,e always try and keep that shield up,and even then i haven't tryed it yet but i am going to,is Life steal tank Lee Sin

Other than that i do see what you mean though it takes a good few seconds to dish out his burst as ad but you are usually on your knees begging for mercy by then and yeah it kinda seems gay that his shield scales with ap,but riot does that so a champion can't be incredibly over powered for a few seconds imo it should place a shield on the target you jump to and place a 35% damage reduction or 20% increased ad or something so riot can decide if they want him tank or ad(or just do my above build that works ^.^)

and his ult i found is just plain useless for it to do its main intended purpose the enemy team has to be in A FREAKING STRAIGHT LINE so it kinda loses its touch but the second problem is that unless you are trying to escape you kick them in the wrong direction its more so a spell for oh that guy has 100 health and me and my teammate have destroyed his health ima get this kill ****ING ROUNDHOUSE KICK!!!!!!*You have slain an enemy!*

overall yes i love Lee Sin but i see what everyone means he is pretty weak for the most part but also he is one of those champions that also take a looooooooooooooooooooot of skill to play but also he is labeled as assassin,assassins are supposed to be able poke in **** your health then run the hell away but he can't necessarily stay alive long enough to do said damage


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

White River

Member

04-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leondidas View Post
i have played Lee Sin a good bit lately,and i'm sorry but dude you must be doing something wrong like tanky Lee Sin works GREAT that is if you do it right,start off with merc or tabi depending on what you need for the team and then get a chain vest,warmog's,chain best>atma's,FoN and from then on you'll usually be fine health and damage wise also prioritize your shield early game i go q,w,e,w,w,r,e,q,w,e,r,q,e,q,e,r,q,e always try and keep that shield up,and even then i haven't tryed it yet but i am going to,is Life steal tank Lee Sin
I will try again.

My core tanky build is usually Doran's > Boots (No upgrade) > Heart of gold > Mercury or Tabi depending on enemy team > Sunfire (Or Banshee's if there are lots of casters) > Atma's > Randuin's. I'll usually try to work in Trinity, but when I get it depends. Haven't really finalized that build, but it works better than the others I've tried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leondidas View Post
Other than that i do see what you mean though it takes a good few seconds to dish out his burst as ad but you are usually on your knees begging for mercy by then and yeah it kinda seems gay that his shield scales with ap,but riot does that so a champion can't be incredibly over powered for a few seconds imo it should place a shield on the target you jump to and place a 35% damage reduction or 20% increased ad or something so riot can decide if they want him tank or ad(or just do my above build that works ^.^)
I think a 35% damage reduction, or 20% AD increase would be a bit OP. I mean, most actual tanks doesn't have access to a 35% damage reduction that isn't an ult. They could make his shield scale with AD without making it overpowered; all they'd need to do is reduce the scaling a bit. Go from .8 with AP to .5 with AD.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SirAcey

Senior Member

04-16-2011

Energy is fine now, Damage is what needs looked at.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sir Longfellow

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-16-2011

You guys are simply playing Lee Sin wrong because damage is not his problem, if he has one.

EDIT: and Lee Sin is not a tanky dps or tank or tanky character, he's a squishy assasin.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MattTheMachine

Senior Member

04-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Longfellow View Post
You guys are simply playing Lee Sin wrong because damage is not his problem, if he has one.

EDIT: and Lee Sin is not a tanky dps or tank or tanky character, he's a squishy assasin.
hes a squishy assasin , but doesnt deal enough damage to kill any one with a full HP.

His passive is useless as he doesnt have any CC to keep anyone close to him.

Compared to other assasins like Xin Zhao and nocturne:

Nocturne has a AS steroid , a much better one and a fear to help keep enemies at bay to deal consistent damage.

Xin has a Slow with Audacious charge , and a knockup with TTS to keep them around.


12345 ... 6