Shaco the unkillable

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Hiiro Yui

Senior Member

02-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakra View Post
it's not that he's literally invisible, you are just as visible as any other stealth near an oracles, but he needs to be in range, and no sane shaco will blink into oracles range

(that is, unless he's going in for the kill)
what i mean is, if your in the middle of a team fight, he blinks out of it, runs around the bushes and blinks back into the team fight, he has to attack before the oracles will show him. i'll have to screen shot it, and post it, its the one most annoying thing about shaco, i usually pick one up just so i can hunt him down, but that bug is getting on my nerves.


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HackJack

Junior Member

02-22-2010

People oughta stop telling others to use oracles against stealthed chars. Oracles have VERY SHORT range and don't counter stealth almost ever.

Only times oracles might help are when chasing a stealther (that is not Shaco, he just simply outruns you whatever you might do) OR when soloing a lane against a stealther like Twitch or Eve to prevent ganks.

Wards are also useless against Shaco in team fights but good against other stealthers.

Shaco is unkillable if he wants to be.


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SeventhGrave

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Member

02-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackJack View Post
People oughta stop telling others to use oracles against stealthed chars. Oracles have VERY SHORT range and don't counter stealth almost ever.

Only times oracles might help are when chasing a stealther (that is not Shaco, he just simply outruns you whatever you might do) OR when soloing a lane against a stealther like Twitch or Eve to prevent ganks.

Wards are also useless against Shaco in team fights but good against other stealthers.

Shaco is unkillable if he wants to be.
wait, WUT?

a huge counter against stealth doesn't counter stealth almost ever...
THAT makes perfect sense to me.

Twitch is harder to counter with oracles, but plant some wards and he's just as dead. Or at least you know he's there. Twitch doesn't outrange oracles.

Shaco is melee, with an escape. Any speed buff char with oracles can hunt down shaco. But if shaco is gone from a teamfight.. he might not be dead, but he's gone. a 4vs5 for you.

Evelynn.. I don't even have to talk about that. Oracles on your tank, oracles on 1 caster/backlaner and evelynn is succesfully out of a team fight.

Sooo, oracles ISN'T a counter against stealth?


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Bigricky

Senior Member

02-22-2010

There are some terribly broken stealth mechanics in the game atm. Here's a fun one. 3 teammates ganked Evelynn/Twitch while they were out of stealth. Beating down evelynn who is stunned from a gold card. Then she instantly stealths and escapes with no hp as soon as the stun wears off.

There's supposed to be a 1.5s delay on stealth and if they are taking damage the stealth is even more delayed. Ive been on both ends of this since I play twitch. Sometimes the stealth will never work and sometimes you'll just stealth right next to some guy who is autoattacking you.

and anyone who argues that Shaco's deceive is balanced is an idiot. He basically has a spammable flash+stealth+crit. Combined with his extremely high base MS and ulti clone he is pretty much unkillable until late game team fighting.

People complain 24/7 about flash being stupid yet they say Deceive is "balanced" because Shaco is squishy.


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Keith Bearjumper

Senior Member

02-22-2010

People have been making the same exact posts about Shaco in beta. He got nerfed across the board, nerfed again, suffered two subnerfs on crit dmg runes, and then got his Deceive and ultimate nerfed again.

He's a chump compared to what he was and the posts do not change.

You want to deal with Shaco? Fine. Almost every Shaco does the following -

1. Starts at Golem
2. Starts at Lizard
3. Tries for a Red Pot First Blood
4. 1 + 3 or 2 + 3

With that known take your team and go **** him at the start, set off all his boxes early, steal the buff, etc. Something along those lines. Take some people and go find him. Letting anyone run free in the jungle is a nightmare.

Buy Sight Wards. Are you mid? Be ****ed careful until you are sure a Red Potted Shaco isn't going to pop out and blow you right the **** up at minute 2 and the first time you go buy grab some cheap wards and ward the top and bottom river bushes. You should be doing this anyway even if there isn't a Shaco. If you aren't mid ward your lane's river bush. He'll always want to pop out from there. Ward your neutral buffs, ward dragon. Track him down with Clairvoyance. You do have at least one Clairvoyance on the team, right?

That's all you need to do. Where things go **** up is when he gets lizard for free, murders mid, and then one of the lanes blindly pushes over and over setting up excellent 3v2 fights.


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HackJack

Junior Member

02-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhGrave View Post
a huge counter against stealth doesn't counter stealth almost ever...
THAT makes perfect sense to me.
I explained it's because of the short range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhGrave View Post
Twitch is harder to counter with oracles, but plant some wards and he's just as dead. Or at least you know he's there. Twitch doesn't outrange oracles.
I don't feel this is true. I find wards overall worse to counter Twitch. They are static and have limited lifespan. Oracle is potentially infinite and "portable". It always served me well against Twitch and Eve (while laning).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhGrave View Post
Shaco is melee, with an escape. Any speed buff char with oracles can hunt down shaco. But if shaco is gone from a teamfight.. he might not be dead, but he's gone. a 4vs5 for you.
No speed buff char can compete against Shaco's through-wall teleports. Ever played Shaco well? :\

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhGrave View Post
Evelynn.. I don't even have to talk about that. Oracles on your tank, oracles on 1 caster/backlaner and evelynn is succesfully out of a team fight.

Sooo, oracles ISN'T a counter against stealth?
Oracles AREN'T an efficient counter against very mobile stealthers (like Shaco) thou they do work against the likes of Eve and Twitch (which are a lot less mobile than Shaco).


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d2king10

Senior Member

02-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Testiclies View Post
There are some terribly broken stealth mechanics in the game atm. Here's a fun one. 3 teammates ganked Evelynn/Twitch while they were out of stealth. Beating down evelynn who is stunned from a gold card. Then she instantly stealths and escapes with no hp as soon as the stun wears off.

There's supposed to be a 1.5s delay on stealth and if they are taking damage the stealth is even more delayed. Ive been on both ends of this since I play twitch. Sometimes the stealth will never work and sometimes you'll just stealth right next to some guy who is autoattacking you.

and anyone who argues that Shaco's deceive is balanced is an idiot. He basically has a spammable flash+stealth+crit. Combined with his extremely high base MS and ulti clone he is pretty much unkillable until late game team fighting.

People complain 24/7 about flash being stupid yet they say Deceive is "balanced" because Shaco is squishy.
^This


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Omnicis

Senior Member

02-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Testiclies View Post
There are some terribly broken stealth mechanics in the game atm. Here's a fun one. 3 teammates ganked Evelynn/Twitch while they were out of stealth. Beating down evelynn who is stunned from a gold card. Then she instantly stealths and escapes with no hp as soon as the stun wears off.

There's supposed to be a 1.5s delay on stealth and if they are taking damage the stealth is even more delayed. Ive been on both ends of this since I play twitch. Sometimes the stealth will never work and sometimes you'll just stealth right next to some guy who is autoattacking you.

and anyone who argues that Shaco's deceive is balanced is an idiot. He basically has a spammable flash+stealth+crit. Combined with his extremely high base MS and ulti clone he is pretty much unkillable until late game team fighting.

People complain 24/7 about flash being stupid yet they say Deceive is "balanced" because Shaco is squishy.
i think flash is OP for a summoner spell.
dont forget that shacos decieve takes up an ability slot, however, it is quite OP in the crit, and its ridic low cooldown.


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DarkVizard

Banned

02-22-2010

Kanka the whiner.


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Thadious

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Senior Member

02-22-2010

Shaco is fine as is. There are lots of characters that can 2 or 3-shot Shaco. One big problem that people have is they run, allowing him to do backstabbing damage over and over.

The ONLY change that I can see as fair would be to raise the cooldown of deceive SLIGHTLY. I will say this, however. Kassadin's blink is on a shorter CD than Shaco's, and nobody complains about that. And Shaco is easier to target down than Kass in my opinion.

People act like Shaco can deceive straight into a battle then straight back out after his crit, but here's how it actually works.

Shaco deceives in and attacks your weakest character.

Your team is not prepared for the OBVIOUS shaco attack and continues attacking other enemy champions while Shaco does some more backstabbing for the 7 seconds of his deceive CD.

THEN Shaco deceives out and isn't seen again til a few of your dumb teammates are dead.

Just be prepared to focus Shaco down as soon as he pops in and you will have NO problems. A SINGLE disable should allow you to kill Shaco unless he's stacking defensive items, in which case he will be dealing terrible damage.


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