Tier 3 chars vs tier 1 chars - something must be done

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Sprodj

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Senior Member

02-20-2010

According to the rules of game balance, more expensive champions should not be any better or worse than cheap ones, just different.


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Zeta

Senior Member

02-20-2010

Katarina is bottom tier, now.


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Craixis

Senior Member

02-20-2010

Tier means nothing for how good the champion is alone.
Just because you buy Karthas for 6000+ IP doesn't mean you're gonna be godly with him.
Its just these characters have better potential in the hands of a skilled player.
Take me and Teemo, I've played him over 300 games, he was easy to learn, and once I got the hang of him... that was it, it was either I could push us hard for a win, or my team ends up feeding the enemies and getting us screwed (I have dumb luck on my side that gets me away from fights with a sliver of HP without an ignite... I'm a TF in a can )
Zilean on the other hand, I was playing a game the other night and Yi, Kasus, and Nunu were just eating us up, I have no idea what was happening. The game remained even, mainly because of a few good timed revives and a great teamwork (speeding up harder hitters, slowing down faster enemies, bombing, etc). Zilean can carry a 10-30 team to victory with extreme effort, high twitch skills, and quick field movements.
He might not get many kills, but he can still end up being what makes or breaks a game. In the hands of a skilled player, this Tier 3 can be like a god on the battlefield, deciding which team member lives, dies, which enemy is doomed. But only in the hands of a good player, can Zilean be truly effective.
I'm not a great player, but me and Zilean click, I can work him mid or laning, we can be horribly out numbered, but if I'm there when we get into a 5-5 team fight, we're almost certain to win, even if it's just that one revive which saves the person with the strongest AoE, or the Tiny master of Evil who stuns them and ults their strongest caster, or that robot who explodes into a burst of electricity and smashes them into the sky.
Tier 1 characters are simple to learn and easy to master, but vary rarely do they control the fates of games by themselves.
Tier 2 characters are simple to learn but difficult to master, meaning that they can be what the battle hinges on, they have those skills which can either decimate an enemy team or save a group of their allies.
Tier 3, you might pick em up quick, you might think you know what they do, but you'll always be surprised when you see them do something completely out of the ordinary, changing entire battles alone with impressive skills and tactics. Only the best players can use these characters to their full potential (I still wanna see what Zilean can actually do if played by a master, I've got alot to learn with him.)

Wanna make yourself even better? Learn what other heroes do before playing, even if you don't like them. Someone else is gonna play em, and if you know that those 3 spinning clocks can save you, you'll keep fighting instead of running off with Zilean's ult, possibly dooming the team and really pissing off your rezzer. This is one of the first steps to becoming a higher tier player. I transitioned from Teemo->Taric->Zilean, you might be able just to jump right into a game with a tier 3 character and decimate, however, how you proceed is up to you. Yi--> Katrina is a good start, Kat has less counters to deal with but is also more reliant on how well you can play keep away from your enemies, she's a great harasser, but much more difficult to use then just "Charge in, alpha strike, Highlander, Wuju style, hope to god they don't have blinding darts or exhaust or any other type of CC effect that counts as a disable or blind."


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xRichie

Junior Member

02-20-2010

Kats fine, but i seriously dont think she can live vs a yi with a divine.. dodge = owned


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CryHavoc

Senior Member

02-20-2010

Yi = bottom tier champ. Period. Not up for debate. He isn't even a thought in high ELO games. I haven't seen a Yi in probably 30 matches.


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Silent Reaper

Senior Member

02-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman323 View Post
Ok, just as the title states - tier 1 vs tier 3 (or any other for that matter). I am a little bit confused and annoyed, since I bought Katharina ( as I imagine its a tier 3 char ), and I discovered, that she is ALOT weaker in allmost ANY combat situation, than most of other chars that I have tried =s
Lets compare master Yi and Katharina:
(compared to each a nother)
Master yi's advantages: ALOT higher dmg, att speed, and I dont remember for sure, but I think run speed and health. Yi allso needs a lot less gold from the shop to be able to start ganking.

Master yi's disadvanteges: low mana (clarity helps to avoid this disadvantage)

Katharina's advantages: No mana, and her shunpo. (I dont see any more, if you do, please enlighten me)

Katharina's disadvantages: Low dmg, low attack speed, low armor, lower hp, lower running speed and so on.

Concidering skills - Shunpo <= Alpha strike; Bouncing blade < Alpha strike or Wuju style; Killer inscincts > meditate ( strangely ), Death lotus <<< Highlander ( these are totally unmatched skills ).

From the point of view of your team mates - master yi is a very important adition to the team, who deals really high damage. Katharina - isnt a very important adition to the team, aspecially, because she is a ks'er.

I mean in practicly ALL aspects a tier 1 char ( which costs arount 500 IP ) is ALOT better than a tier 3 char ( which costs 3k IP ), and if you are thinking: "so okay, these are just two chars, others are different" - NO, around 97% of tier 1 and tier 2 chars I tried were better or equal to tier 3 or tier 4 chars, and so I personally think that something must be done - either higher tier chars should have theyr stats and skills improved (damage increased, stun added, etc.) OR lower tier chars should be nerfed - its just plain logics.

I would be glad to hear other peoples oppinions )


PS. sorry for the mistakes if there are any, its 2 am at the moment, and I can barely keep my eyes open
Actually when you first play tier 3 champions, most people tend to be really bad at playing them, its once you have enough experience playing with them that you will have a somewhat noticeable advantage then the lower tier champions.


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gandalfrockman

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Junior Member

02-20-2010

To Op:
ARE YOU INSANE?!?!?

I only real feel qaulified to speak on master Yi:
Master Yi just isnt that good. Yes he has amazing attack based physical damage, but
A)Thats the easiest kind of damage to avoid, and if thats your thing Udyr is far more versatile, and a much scarier threat late game.
B)Master Yi has nothing else. He is a one trick pony. HES REALLY GOOD AT HIS ONE TRICK but it IS only one trick.

My personal experience thus far:
I started with master yi, he is a really good character to learn with, and at a basic level rewarding, but he doesnt contribute to a team conflict in any particularly effective way.
I moved onto Amumu, at first I didnt get it; low damage output; A bit more durable than master yi, but not indestructible; and to top it all off hes slow as molasses since then I have learned the following:
1.Amumu's passive is amazing if you have a caster laning with you.
2.Bandage toss is amazing if ANYONE is laning with you.
3.Curse of the sad mummy WILL win games for your team
4.Curse of the sad mummy WILL win fights for you.
3.Good use of tantrum/Despair makes you one rich mummy which is important since...
6.Despair Stacks with sunfire capes! 2+ sunfire capes and you can kill anything by standing next to it.

In short amumu helps your laning partner kill, helps your team win. Then late game He is uniquely equipped to rob people of their magic resistance, then stop them from moving, then stand next to them....this means they die... it also means non-ranged characters are basically commiting suicide by attempting to hurt you (master yi included)


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Shaman323

Member

02-21-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalfrockman View Post
To Op:
ARE YOU INSANE?!?!?

I only real feel qaulified to speak on master Yi:
Master Yi just isnt that good. Yes he has amazing attack based physical damage, but
A)Thats the easiest kind of damage to avoid, and if thats your thing Udyr is far more versatile, and a much scarier threat late game.
B)Master Yi has nothing else. He is a one trick pony. HES REALLY GOOD AT HIS ONE TRICK but it IS only one trick.

My personal experience thus far:
I started with master yi, he is a really good character to learn with, and at a basic level rewarding, but he doesnt contribute to a team conflict in any particularly effective way.
I moved onto Amumu, at first I didnt get it; low damage output; A bit more durable than master yi, but not indestructible; and to top it all off hes slow as molasses since then I have learned the following:
1.Amumu's passive is amazing if you have a caster laning with you.
2.Bandage toss is amazing if ANYONE is laning with you.
3.Curse of the sad mummy WILL win games for your team
4.Curse of the sad mummy WILL win fights for you.
3.Good use of tantrum/Despair makes you one rich mummy which is important since...
6.Despair Stacks with sunfire capes! 2+ sunfire capes and you can kill anything by standing next to it.

In short amumu helps your laning partner kill, helps your team win. Then late game He is uniquely equipped to rob people of their magic resistance, then stop them from moving, then stand next to them....this means they die... it also means non-ranged characters are basically commiting suicide by attempting to hurt you (master yi included)

I'm not refering to master Yi alone there are many other chars )


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Shaman323

Member

02-21-2010

Umm... I played a bit with Katharina - had around 10 - 20 games ( I know thats not much, but still ). I came to this conclusion about this char (I'm not saying that I know her very well, its only like 15 games) She is Really good at holding out a lane. I held it against Yi, against the Battle mistress, against Ashe and some other preaty good chars, BUT eventhough holding out a lane wasnt that difficult, pushing it was allmost inpossible. AP katharina cant push the lane for sh*t, AD Kat, can do something, but its really problematic, because, she just cant mass out a group of mobs that fast, and eventhough I had around 250 ad, her damage was still realetively low on mobs or turrets.

Trust me - I realised that she would require alot more skill than yi or many other chars I have tried for that instance, the first time I tried her, but still - I expected ALOT more from her... Dont know, maby thats just me - I enjoy playing her, even though its hard as hell, and I havent played any other char since the day I bought her, but still I feel a little bummed out, because I spent 3k IP on her.

I still think she might be a realetively good char, but I havent seen a game, where she would impress me like some other chars do, and thats what disapoints me a bit =/


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Bigricky

Senior Member

02-21-2010

I don't think most of you understand how a Tier list works...

First of all, Master Yi is a pretty near worthless champion because of the reasons stated above combined with the fact that it's hard to farm with him early game and he requires too much gold to be effective.

Tier 3 does not take more skill than a Tier 1 or 2 champion. Lower Tier champions are usually lower tier because of any of the following reasons.
1. They can't farm early game (most phys dps)
2. They require too much gold (most phys dps carries)
3. Too reliant on an easily canceled Ultimate (nunu, katarina)
4. Don't bring anything to teamfights lategame (teemo)
and the big one
4. They don't bring anything to the table that another champion doesn't already do better (Yi vs Twitch anyone?)

There are other reasons, but these are the main ones in my opinion. Just look at the top 2 tiers of champions. I believe that the only melee champions in the top 2 tiers are tanks.