No more Ryze guides w/out CD reduction Ploxxx

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

xXHyorimaruXx

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhynocerous View Post
I'm still a new player and I think I'll keep playing Ryze, I just hope he can be made viable in the highest ELOs
annie still > ryze at any elo after the buff.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EchoRex

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samus Araan View Post
My CD items on Ryze.

12% CD @ 18 runes
10% CD Elixir
23% Golem Buff
6% CD Utility Masteries

Ryze does not need ANY CD items if he has half a brain.
And only if you can guarantee constant golem buff.

Or you can take some CD items, preferably a FH, do the mana stack with Archangel's/Zhonya's, and magic pen stack, with the runes for magic pen instead of CDR.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Samus Araan

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo7 View Post
And only if you can guarantee constant golem buff.

Or you can take some CD items, preferably a FH, do the mana stack with Archangel's/Zhonya's, and magic pen stack, with the runes for magic pen instead of CDR.
With a Ryze on the team, there are very few other heroes who should have a higher priority for the Golem buff than him. He can kill it so fast as well that jacking the other team's buff later is easy unless they have it warded. FH Archangel's and ZHonya's just means that you die in .5 seconds if they manage to get a hold of you. No Veil, no Rylai's, you explode against a decent team. High AP/No survivability Ryze rarely works against a well coordinated team.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

VortexMagus

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Cooldown ryze tends to work best when your opponents are bad.

Once you've unloaded your full combo, your opponents are gonna prioritize your death - ryze is one of the heaviest burst damage chars in the game, even when he's nearly itemless. If you're in the fight long enough to take advantage of CD reduction, and your opposing team is still alive at that point too, something is seriously wrong. Either you should be dead/out of the fight, or your opponents should all be dead/out of the fight.

When you've farmed a huge advantage, cooldown reduction is a waste when for an equivalent amount of ap items, you could oneshot them. When you don't have that huge advantage, I honestly don't think any good team will allow ryze to survive long enough in a team fight to take advantage of his second ult.

Theoretically cooldown reduction works just fine, but I think that if you're able to take full advantage of the reduced cd on your ult (from 35 seconds to ~25?) in a teamfight, something is wrong.

I'd rather do more damage on my initial burst and then get out of there before I get steamrolled, rather than dancing around waiting for my ult to come back and praying they don't notice my extremely squishy body.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Adorno

Senior Member

02-16-2010

@vortex

I'm going on faith that at high ELO it is impossible to have allies disable enough opponents for you to spend .5 seconds casting, flash out, wait 4 seconds, then launch a second round of attacks. If that is the case, it really doesn't seem worth bothering w/him at high ELO. So if you really are high ELO just don't play him Or like Nico says, I guess it is worth playing him just for his single burst. But you rock high ELO, so you don't need us to tell you that anyway.

Now at Mid-ELO where I (and I assume the vast majority of players are), I can say it is definitely possible to cast spells for half a second, back out, and then cast more 4 seconds later. You just have to let your intiators initiate and have an escape.

Also, you are missing the interaction between his CD reduction and his passive. They synergize. The end result is that you are "off ult" for only about 8 seconds, and possibly less. Your CD takes it down to 24 (or 16 seconds off ult, since it ticks for your 8 seconds while it is up), and then your casts take it down another 8 seconds or so. W/Out CDR, you lose that synergy. That's why I bothered to theorycraft it. It isn't a simple thing to think through, because each cast reduces all of your CDs, which in turn gets more spells up which in turn further reduce your CD. Kind of a cool thing.

That said, Samus is right that you can get there w/out items (except elixir) quite easily. If that's the approach, and I think it is a good one, it does mean that you should really have it up for any significant fight. And unless someone else can make a more compelling case for having it, you should get the buff each time. That you should bother to do that, though, flows from the fact that CDR is very helpful for him in any ELO where he seems like a good choice. Being mid-level, I have a lot of fun carrying with him consistently.

Oh and please don't call him "cooldown Ryze". Its not like you have to focus your whole build on it. Get golem (and probably buff extension mastery) or one CD+AP item, and use runes and masteries to do the rest. But don't think you are optimizing him w/out it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SKeeTerTheDog

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Ryze: get a mejai. get 1 kill. game over.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

M3MBRAN3

Member

02-16-2010

I would much rather have a higher burst damage for the second it takes me to unload w-r-e-q than a quicker cooldown from items. If you get max. CDR masteries and runes (whatever those ones on the right are) you shouldn't need to worry about CDR items. Only exception I would say is the frozen heart as it cripples DPSers.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Adorno

Senior Member

02-17-2010

I think frozen heart is absurd on Ryze in 90% of games+, and probably the reason people seem to think a "CDR build" on Ryze is costly and suboptimal. I can MAYBE see a case for glacial shroud (which already gives you the same CDR as frozen heart anyway, and gives you some mana). But buying armor and a tank item on Ryze is not ideal, especially when he can get survivability from items that actually give him other things that he needs (like the AP and burst damage that you are theoretically a fan of).

If you want to map out the relative gain of going offense mastery, using AP runes instead of CD for blues, not buying any elixirs, and not worrying about golem buff, by all means make your case. I just don't think the trade-off is that big, and in my experience the pay-off is huge.

Unless, of course, you are doing something like getting frozen heart. Now that is a trade-off that reduces his burst damage. In my mind, the main question is whether deathfire grasp is worth it for the extra burst and CDR, as a backstop for when you don't have elixir/golem/meijas maxed. My gut says yes. Esp. b/c it is ALSO a burst item that gets you kills, and sometimes brings their tanks into burst range.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lucidlore

Senior Member

02-17-2010

I think the people who downplay the need for CDR items are a bit close minded. It is extremely naive to think that 1 cycle of your spells can blow up the entire enemy team. This doesn't happen in any of the games that i play, it just doesn't. People just are not stupid enough to stand 5 strong hand in hand next to each other for you to blow them up.

Ryze needs 2 things to be useful in a team fight.

1) Survivability
2) CDR

When i play ryze, i have 3k hp, 3.5k mana and plenty of armor and magic resists from banshees and shroud/heart to take a hefty beating. Glass cannon ryze is fail. Tanky ryze that can get off 2 casts of his ultimate during a team fight is win.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

nicosharp

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidlore View Post
I think the people who downplay the need for CDR items are a bit close minded. It is extremely naive to think that 1 cycle of your spells can blow up the entire enemy team. This doesn't happen in any of the games that i play, it just doesn't. People just are not stupid enough to stand 5 strong hand in hand next to each other for you to blow them up.

Ryze needs 2 things to be useful in a team fight.

1) Survivability
2) CDR

When i play ryze, i have 3k hp, 3.5k mana and plenty of armor and magic resists from banshees and shroud/heart to take a hefty beating. Glass cannon ryze is fail. Tanky ryze that can get off 2 casts of his ultimate during a team fight is win.
You are playing a champion that has 1 quasi support skill, in a sh%tty snare - Rune Prison. If you are focusing on Survivability and CDR, you are just a ****py support champ, that can do marginal burst. You would be much better off playing Janna/Zilean/Morgana/Kayle in this fashion. Not pointing that out, would be close minded.