No more Ryze guides w/out CD reduction Ploxxx

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Gamecmdr

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adorno View Post
I've been testing this quite a bit, and just did the theorycrafting to back up my in-game experience. Bottom line is that a Ryze with max CD reduction is more than twice as effective as a Ryze w/out CD reduction maxed. The basic concept is simple: CD reduction lets you cast about twice as many spells (40% faster). B/C of his passive, that makes your ult (and everything else) come up even faster. Played optimally at max cooldown, Ryze can get out 3 volleys of his main damage spells while his ult is up; realistically, you'll probably get out 2. Played optimally w/out cooldown, Ryze can MAYBE squeeze out 2 volleys of his main damage spells while his ult is up, but will probably only get 1.

But here's the real kicker: played even competently w/max cooldown, Ryze can easily have only 8 seconds w/his ult off before it comes up again. In a perfect world, playing every ability right when it comes up, he can get that down to 6! That means he can have his ult up half the time or more. In contrast, w/out cooldown reduction he has to wait a lot longer between ults.

Practically, these aren't arbitrary periods of time, either. It is likely to be the difference between getting out 2 ulted rounds of his main damage spells during a team engagement (4 rounds of whoopass) or only making 1 ulted round of attacks. It is not hard to imagine scenarios where having no CD actually cuts his capacity to about 1/4 of what it would otherwise be.

Please, I beg you: don't write anymore Ryze guides that don't include him maxing cooldown, or at least coming close...I'll have to play w/the numbers a bit more to find his minimum CD that still allows for 4 cans of whoopass in a team confrontation. There are a lot of good ways to do this, from runes, masteries, items and golem (w/possible monster buff extension mastery). Tell us how you are maxing it, and why. But don't think you are playing this champ to anything like his capacity without a good chunk of cooldown.
Dude cd reduc items is a waste IMO, Masteries plus blue elixer plus golem easily reach the cap, i you can get a deathfire but the cd reduc is a bonus, youd be getting it for the extra nuke.


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nicosharp

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Senior Member

02-16-2010

Playing Ryze well has nothing to do with maxing Cooldowns.

It is a delicate dance with death. A limbo in and out of attack range. A choice to use your summoner skills offensively, or save them so you can escape death.

Ryze games go 1 of 2 ways. You completely crush, or you are completely crushed.

His volley smash r/w/e/q or whatever order you prefer is usually all the time you have in combat to burst before getting wtfpwnd. I've played ryze a few ways now, but for the people I play against now, the straight AP burst has been winning games for me, with CD being negliable at deciding the games and 5man pushes. For his limited range, burst is the way he needs to be played and focused on, the few seconds between bursts only help once fights are decided.

I go 9/0/21 and after a soulstealer I get the Haunting Guise and blue buff, right there im at about 34% without runes.. If I max my soulstealer, I am also at 34% without buff, and thats where I typically max out.


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Adorno

Senior Member

02-16-2010

@ Nico:

I'm glad to see you come close to maxing cooldown and are successful with it If you write a guide, please be sure to note that. If you really don't care about cooldown, may I recommend you use a different build than the one that is apparently working for you?

I think the key here is that this isn't a huge either-or. Maxing CD doesn't require you to sacrifice much burst damage, if at all. Doing it w/Deathfire Grasp is probably better for your burst damage than a more AP-focused item, and haunting guise, which you like, also gives you much else that you need, including penetration. I would suggest that getting a high CD is easy, and very important ON THE WAY TO making sure you can burst.

At any rate, I have to disagree w/the idea that you should expect to be focused down immediately in any team fight. Flash, ghost, waiting for tanks to initiate, using banshee veil, some survivability+AP items (like ROA or Rylai's)...you should definitely be able to get off your spells, back up, and then come back after your cooldowns. I frequently get off 4 volleys in a team battle.

I don't think Ryze's job is to initiate...and if you don't initiate, you should be able to survive for more than 4 seconds. Of course, even one volley can turn the tide of some fights. I'm not going to stop anyone from having half the fun


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nicosharp

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Senior Member

02-16-2010

@ adomo.
1st off: I get Haunting Guise super late, at best, late-mid game. So I rarely have the CD until lvls 10-13. Haunting Guise isn't a necessity, and sometimes I'll just go for a Lichbane instead. I much prefer burst, and while its awesome to beable to ult + 2 volleys of QWE late game while under ult, it has never been game changing. A lot of Ryze's go CD tank which I can see as effective, but I play straight AP for the most part. Grabbing Zhonya's and Ryail's if the game goes late.

2nd off: Ryze is not Twitch, you have no shroud of stealth, your best stealth is a well positioned brush to battle from. Ryze is focused down, especially if I am playing him, as I am immediately targeted as highest threat.

3rd off: I never once typed the word initiate. He is the worst initator in the game(quite possibly), and pops like it. However, if you are going to push with your team or near them, you are going to suffer a lot more from tickle damage (corki's missles, tfs wild cards, etc.) then your team. This is why you usually have to hang back and wait for your team to engage, but you also need to be close, so sidelaning(jungle/brush on teammates sides) is best bet, as your mobility to get close in time is hinderered if you are 2-3 cast ranges behind your closest teammate. So basically, if you want to contribute, you will be there, will be there late, and will be able to get off burst, yet you still will be focused when you arrive, if you are playing against competent people. If you are right there with your team or engaged in the sidelane/brush and could benefit from CD, you will sometimes be stumbled upon and forced to initiate then run out.


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Adorno

Senior Member

02-16-2010

I guess here's the sort of thing I experience: your tank flashes in and stuns them one way or another. You step into range and cast your spells. If they are unstunned by then, flash/ghost out. Or have blitz pull, or Rammus taunt/pull. Or even have gragas scatter them ffs, if that's what you're into. Not optimal...but I can even imagine that working. Okay, maybe not that...at least I haven't seen it.

I need to do the theorycrafting on it, but there is a basic synergy between AP and CD, similar to the synergy between AS and DMG, or between armor and HP. There is a mathematically optimal point where increasing one further is not as good as increasing the other. I should run the numbers for myself and folks, but the basic principle here isn't too tough: casting your spells twice DOES TWICE AS MUCH DAMAGE. That also means that all of that AP you bought goes twice as far. And realistically, this definitely happens in the games I play.

So this idea that there are two main approaches "CD/Tank" and "AP" really doesn't describe Ryze's options. The comparison I want to make is "CD/AP" vs "Straight AP", both w/the necessary survivability items to be viable...and I really want to find if 33% CDR is good enough, or if that extra 7% is important. B/C the right amount basically allows you to double the impact of your ult, this is a great example of a place where a few percentage points difference can have an outsize impact. Personally, I think something like, "Ryze should have 34% CDR" is VERY helpful info in a guide.


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nicosharp

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Senior Member

02-16-2010

if your tank is in range to flash pulv, and you are in range to step in and combo without blowing a sum skill to catch up before the stun wears off, you were not standing in the right place to begin with, and your opponents have no idea how to position and use zone control.

(It can happen, but people won't be easily baited in the games I play, and positioning is very solid.)


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wildfire393

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhynocerous View Post
Because I'm not level 20 yet, I haven't bought any runes, and I still use cooldown Ryze. The only frustration comes from not killing in the first volley because I exchanged AP for cooldown. I feel like the build is 10 times more useful in team fights though. Rather than throwing down 1 volley and ghosting around until I can do it again, I can basically keep on wrecking.

I'm almost level 20 and I've saved up IP, so convince me to buy cooldown runes.

I'm still a new player and I think I'll keep playing Ryze, I just hope he can be made viable in the highest ELOs
Fortunately, at summoner level 30, Ryze does not need to invest in a single item granting Cooldown Reduction.

You get 9% Cooldown reduction from going 9/0/21 with your masteries (and this can be achieved as quickly as level 27 if you just go for the CDR and not the Mpen and Summoner Reduction). 6% is fairly easy from runes (I use 7/9 Flat CDR Glyphs and 1 Quint), giving you 15%. Then simply taking golem gives you the last 25%. Alternately, if you find yourself incapable of holding on to golem, there are a lot of combos that give it to you without harming your damage output: Fully Charged soulstealer and Deathfire Grasp give you 15% each and Haunting Guise and the Blue Potion give you 10% each. Pick one from column A and one from column B.


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Adorno

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Thanks for the back and forth nico It helps me a lot to hear how things play in higher level games.

It seems like you're probably higher ELO than me. If that really is how Ryze plays at high ELO, even post-buff, then I fully understand why he isn't viable at that level. But if that is the case, I guess the high ELO Ryze guide remains as simple as ever:

Play Fidd or Annie instead.

Or Maybe: only play him on a team with lots of AOE stun/disable. I wouldn't know. I'm blissfully mid-tier.


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nicosharp

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Senior Member

02-16-2010

LOL! too dam true. they can't buff Ryze enough to make him as good as Annie, Fiddle, or even Anivia/Janna. However, you can still win games with him going burst, you might not be stacking the stuns or disables like Annie or Fiddle, but throw out more damage in a shorter amount of time then both, and can split up team fights, with high AP and spell flux.

Even more true is if you want huge burst damage mage champion, Veigar is also better for his longer range stun and ability to get sick AP lvls late game.


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Samus Araan

Senior Member

02-16-2010

My CD items on Ryze.

12% CD @ 18 runes
10% CD Elixir
23% Golem Buff
6% CD Utility Masteries

Ryze does not need ANY CD items if he has half a brain.