[Essay] Snowballing - Why DotA had it right and LoL is still learning

First Riot Post
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CommisarCain

Senior Member

02-15-2010

The only things I disagree with is the idea that, basically, ganking needs a buff. That is if I understood correctly. I think the skill required of an assasin is about right. Flash is fine too. So many stuns and slows to counter it.


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Nether

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Great post for the most part, I particularly agree with #4. Not 100% sold on point #2 though, although for the most part the game is playing out in the way you describe. Getting free reign over a big creep push midgame is roughly the equivalent of a full hero kill in terms of xp/money. If you ward your forest you can usually tell at which points you're able to farm said creep waves, and you can also ensure that the money goes directly to your carry which is more difficult in 5v5. A roaming gank squad doesn't get these benefit.

Still fair points. I have a problem with the following though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmicarmicarmicat View Post
Let me put out a simple statistic thesis: How many games do you manage to make a comeback in, where you are behind 7-0 within the first 10 minutes? A very likely guess would be around 15-25% of the time, do you actually manage to turn things around at this point.

Second question: How many kills does a game usually end with(both teams combined)? It differs alot, but generally an average of 40-50.

So asuming that my numbers are correct, we can conclude that over 75% of the games are won within less than 20% of the total amount of kills (to one side exclusively, that is). It's not perfect math by any rate, but even given some leeway it's perfectly clear to me that something is amiss.

Now I would like someone to explain to me the fairness of less than a quarter of the kills in a game, determine the outcome of more than three-quarter of all games? Because I don't see it.
While I agree you tend to come back from about 1/5-1/10 games in which you get totally belted early (totally rough estimate of course) this doesn't equate to 80-90% of games being over as a contest before the 10 min mark.

It doesn't equate for two reasons. Firstly games in which one side completely dominates the other early are reasonably rare. I couldn't put a figure on it, but I can anecdotally say I can only recall one in the last week of games that I've played. 10-5 or 7-3 one way or the other are common, but that's a vastly different scenario.

The second is that snowballs often happen because the other team is flat out better. In the game that was lobsided early the beginning was merely the prelude to a much larger stomping that came about due to a mismatch in player skill and champion composition. In these situations it's often unreasonable to expect a comeback to happen merely from a gulf in player skill standpoint, let alone a game mechanics standpoint.

Apologies if these points have been made earlier in the thread.


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Yiruru

Member

02-15-2010

Solo queue is pretty much unplayable due to Team Snowballing. My team has gotten a positive score in about 5% of my games unless there are ******s on the other team.


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Malduk

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyGoat View Post
I honestly think a more objective oriented game style, like a king of the hill or control point style, would fit this genre perfectly. Maybe LoL will pioneer that, would be awesome. Demigod did a control point style thing, and it worked (for all the flaws of Demigod, their objective focus was very solid) - the team that kept superior map control won, hands down.
This.
Demigod maybe went too far in making holding flags more important than getting kills, but with adding something worth HOLDING, not just killing and moving on (like nashor), would potentially sway the game from team roaming.

I'll give easiest example: two flags in the river (one above, one bellow from middle lane), OR at the middle of top and bottom lane between towers, that give teamwide bonuses like +%HP one and +%mana other.
So when stronger team pushes middle into the base, one TF or Phanteon could teleport over there, grab most beneficial flag for their team (most likely HP flag), and 4 of his team mates, with the help of the towers, would be able to actually ace the team, and make their own push.
Of course, flag bonuses, their positioning etc, should be well tested and tweaked for optimal gameplay, but this addition would add more strategy to the game. Lane or defend the flag? Go for possible early ganks at flags? Group up and lose the flag, or leave someone behind?


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littleevil

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmicarmicarmicat View Post
This is mostly just an issue when you go for big items like Radiance. FOr the most part you just buy minor items from the lane as you farm the gold, and there is even a sideshop you can use.
u must have never seen a well stacked elite camp from a toon with dominator or something like enchantress skill and heaving it killed by your juger or axe or devion and just outlvling and outdpsing any hero or hero groups in all teamfights

i have been in quite a few games when early game well fed annie would just run into ganks becouse she was so sure of her godlyness just to be shutdown by focus/silence/stun
but i agree that somehow dota not only feels faster but even after beeing 4-5 kills down early game u still dont worry as much if ur in highlvl/skill group and have at least one good carry / jungler

i just hope that they increase gold given by minions add destructible trees that can block los
add tp scrolls and make the map bigger and of course add draft and remove cm XD


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Holepuncher

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickyCat View Post
I feel that Dota snowballs much worse than LoL for the simple reason that when you die in HoN you lose gold.

Just about all your points are jsut as valid for dota too. If a melee carry gets a good first blood/double kill early game, it can spell certain doom.

Not only does killing an Opponent in HoN give you gold, you're taking away the opponent's ability to keep up at all with items.

So say you kill someone in Dota, you gain 280g, they lose 200g. The net worth of that exchange is essentially 580 gold for one kill. And now you gain about a minute and a half of farm, and he just lost a minute of farm.
Basically this.


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KirbyHero

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Recruiter

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by h3w0 View Post
Is flash really getting another nerf? I facepalm when I see 10 flash games. It's not worth it on every hero. Just because everybody uses it as their security blanket 'oh im noob i didn't realize i was killable hit flash!" instead of a gank tool doesn't mean it needs more nerf .
Those "noobs" are getting more ganks than you because they start taking more risks when flash is off cooldown. If you don't get it on 9 out of 10 champs, you're doing it wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CommissarCain
I think the skill required of an assasin is about right. Flash is fine though. So many stuns and slows to counter it.
Which ones, might I ask? Alistar's and Udyr's, which require you to touch them? Sion's, which is cancelled by Flash? Ashe's stun you can loldodge?


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littleevil

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterD103 View Post
I wanted to point out Locust point wich i think is very important.

1)LoL champions are designed more for Pub play than Scrim play. As he said they are thought to be self reliant, especially the idea that every champion should be very powerfull lategame or no champion is really a monster in lategame.

In Dota champions are more specialized. And thus gave place to more strategies, as Locust said in Dota, you could play to focus on early game, with a gank team, a push strategy, a protect the carry and a teamfighter strategy.

You canīt play protect the carry strategy because carries in LOL arenīt that brutal, you canīt play ganksquad team because early game tower diving is harder and river runes do not exist, also they will force you to play a 5 team fight against team fight if they really want.

Dota had more counter picks and specialized champiosn that allowed you for more crazy , varied and specialidez strategies.

One example Is how Silencer was a great counter for teamfight based strategies, while he wasnīt great by itself as a champion, he was so powefull against those strategies that it was a great counter pick if you were expecting that. Or Pugna wich completety decidmated push strategies. Some champions had great lane control, but were so amazing on the other areas that were good picks if you wanted to risk win early on.

It was very common to pick lowered tiered champions in order to have access to certain specific things.

2) I rememberd LoL claiming short laning phase. But I still see few reasons to leave lane before level 6. Wich sadeness me.

Several factors contribute to this, I already said it several times in the beta and have to say it again
a) The concept of boots of speed. I donīt know what they add to the game. Can anyone say why the game needs this item?. The point is that you move so much slower without boots of speed that before getting in ganking mode you need to get some, wich seems counterproductive, in my mind the only effect of the existance of this item in moba is to make laning phase longer.

b) The middle lane is hard to gank. I ve complained about this, but add that you have no TP, you need boots to gank, and the shorstest way to ganking is middle. But oh wait. Ganking middle is very hard. You realize going to the other side of the map, is a long way, sometimes the opponent champions are already level 5, if you leave at level 3.
I dontīsee its always a bad idea to do it or that ganking mid is not an option.
But is basically crying for less ganking. Also The fact that middle champions have a lot of time flash, shortens the space and makes it even harder to gank. The fact that the ganker has flash too isnīt a great deal because, they have to fight in tower range anyway, and tower diving in ths game at low leves is suicidal.
I asked already for towers starting doing 50% damage instead of 75%, im not sure itīs a great idea though.

c) Two heroes mid is a bad strategy. One because the mid is so open, the there are little tricks to pull off., so Itīs hard to have 2 champions dominating the middle lane. But more important, in dota it was sometimes a good strategy especially on gank squad strategies because a 2 man in the middle could control the runes, and go up or down as please for a fast gank, a lot of times with a bottle with runes.

d) No river runes or things that a single hero can reasonably do or get without a great sacrifice.

3) I will repeat myself, because nobody even said it was a bad idea. I think that a great comeback mechanic will be give gold and exp to champions proportional to the difference of levels between the killer and the killed. So a level 12 gets more gold and exp killing a level 16, than what a level 14 would get, or eve a level 18 would get.

dude u dont know how much i agree with u when it comes to the counteractive heroes - just like silencer
there is basicly no counter hero to cm - would love to see anything that would give global silence asap that ******ed flaming ball apears over your head - interupting all spells and preventing from casts - or a nice twitch counter hero that would create an orb on the ground that would reverse all dmg that would be done towards heroes that are in it - lol needs more counters


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Cheesebeard

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Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by littleevil View Post
dude u dont know how much i agree with u when it comes to the counteractive heroes - just like silencer
there is basicly no counter hero to cm - would love to see anything that would give global silence asap that ******ed flaming ball apears over your head - interupting all spells and preventing from casts - or a nice twitch counter hero that would create an orb on the ground that would reverse all dmg that would be done towards heroes that are in it - lol needs more counters
Despite your bad grammar, spelling, punctuation, and lack of capitalization... I agree that LoL needs more counters. But, without a visible draft mode, the point is currently moot.

First, push for visible draft implementation.

Second, push for heroes with counters.

Third, make sure that heroes after the first two steps are balanced based upon the prior heroes not having this in mind...

Fourth, deal with the angry masses when their favorite hero gets countered.


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Mojoman

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Our philosophy on this issue is that individual snowballing is good, and team snowballing is bad. Right now, team snowballing occurs too much -- one super carry twitch is a lot easier to handle than 5 guys who are 3 levels higher than each of you.

We are going to make some experience table tweaks to reduce team snowballing without hurting individual snowballing much. We are also going to make a new 3 lane map that is larger, has less cross-map connectivity (so that there is higher cost to 5 man roam, and less shutdown of the farming/laning phase via the first tower being down), etc.

We probably will nerf flash.

We wont be nerfing snowball items. Emotional highs from the game you super carried make this genre sticky. We removed it too much in the beta, and it cost us. Sorry, but being super carry annie or super carry corki once in a while gets a player through the 8 defeat in a row streak they hit the next day.

I'm on the fence about early gold for kills. It's been something we have been talking about, for the reason you cite. OF course, an early kill is also harder than a late kill.
put a liimt on how many people can be in a lane. As in, but a limit on a certaint area that can only handle a certain amount of people from each team, other wise
1)Silences extras
2)hurts extras(poison)
or something like that