[Essay] Snowballing - Why DotA had it right and LoL is still learning

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L0CUST

The Council

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmicarmicarmicat View Post
Hmm. You sure thats a good idea? It would help the team that's not getting any kills - but if they die, they are leaving even more gold to the enemy. Thus that would be a double edged sword.

No, I think the best sollution would be to lower gold bonus. Remember - not only the reward is lowered, the risk is too if for example TP scrolls were introduced.
oh I forgot to mention, I think one lane being dominated should sway the game hard in that team's favor. LoL really doesn't start snowballing until team fights are done. the lane stage is pretty much a snooze fest waiting for players to level up. (unless you have a jungler.. and it is why many good players play the jungle early.. but against good teams rofl)

In HoN I play casters and start roaming early.. and shutting down enemy players ~level 4. That is possible in HoN and many teams do it at the "pro" stage, it nets you nothing in LoL because of the silly increase XP/Gold minions give the longer the game goes on, and it hurts your levels and doesn't give you much more gold than if you stayed in a lane. I would explain more, but I don't like giving too much away.


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spinny

Junior Member

02-15-2010

to add to the anecdotes: i've been in a game where our team was getting pretty badly stomped. we had a nice teamsetup of aoe, burst, and continuous dps chars, but individually we were all playing horribly. it got to the point where we were maybe 14-15 tops and the entire other team was 18.
the game ended when they made one huge error during a push and we somehow aced them with only the loss of one of our burst heroes. but because they were all 18 we had a free minute to charge down the lane, kill the base tower/inhibitors, then drill the nexus, while our burst dps hero respawned in time to teleport down and help us clear the creeps around the nexus itself.

although this is an extreme example i see where the OP is going, even with a good setup, mistakes REALLY add up from early to late game, which gives almost an overwhelming advantage to the dominating team. having to rely on a massive blunder, while it feels VERY GOOD, is probably not a reliable way to achieve a comeback, so some balancing may need to be made.

personally i think the mejai's is fine as it is. it rewards survivabilty with a huge increase in combat ability. however i do think the occult and levi should either be buffed to match it, or slightly buffed with a slight nerf to mejais to balance them out some more. no hard numbers, but maybe give the occult a higher bonus at 0 stacks, with small bonuses per stack. then at 20 it has a % damage increase or an attack speed % increase. movement speed is nice, but the mejai's has cd reduction, so i think attack speed is more in line with an occult. for leviathan, maybe it only loses 1/4 stacks per death instead of 1/3, might make it viable.

in terms of hero kills, i'd like to see some scaling. some MMO's i've seen have it if a monster your character attacks is much higher, you get bonus exp. if the monster is too low, it gets greatly reduced exp. we could make it the same, so a high level hero stomping on everybody below him doesn't benefit AS MUCH. conversely, a group of low level heroes who take down said high level hero get a bigger reward, split by the assists. even beyond taking out a killing spree, just the fact that a low level char killed a high level one. heroes of relatively equal level (+-1 range) get the standard gold reward.

im not sure how it would work exactly, for example, one person on the losing team is still doing relatively well, so they're level 18 with the rest of their team...15. they all band together and kill a runaway 18 hero on the other side, but the 18 gets the final hit in, do the lower levels get bonus or because the 18 killed it, no bonus? or if a lower level kills the opponent, does the 18 on their own team share in the bonus?

that i'm not sure... but there's my input.


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0CUST View Post
oh I forgot to mention, I think one lane being dominated should sway the game hard in that team's favor. LoL really doesn't start snowballing until team fights are done. the lane stage is pretty much a snooze fest waiting for players to level up. (unless you have a jungler.. and it is why many good players play the jungle early.. but against good teams rofl)
I think that it should sway as well - but not as much as it currently does! That's my opinion anyway. Being 2 levels higher for a teamfight because u dominated the lane has alot to say, Especially when it starts around lvl 6-8 and not lvl 12-14


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KirbyHero

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Senior Member

02-15-2010

I wish I could +5 for the OP, but I can only +1

Some thoughts...

1st off, team snowballing is much tougher to stomach when players are required to stomach 25 minutes of it at the minimum. This needs to change pretty badly, it's pretty ludicrous that I get a demerit on my record if I leave a game which all ten participants can already identify as being a win for the other team. I've hear that IP farming was a problematic exploit?.. Please, at the least add "Surrender for zero IP option" before twenty five minutes have transpired.

2nd, it's unfortunate that snowball items will not be changing. (one THIRD of your stacks? Really?) It's intuitively obvious that individual snowballing contributes to team snowballing. While I fully understand why snowball items are fun, especially for the casual gamer, I just don't think the cost/benefit ratio comes out to Mejai's Soulstealer.

Zileas's initial response post sounds like he thinks snowball items are a good hook to keep the game's playerbase large, but it's not a good idea... in fact, I think I'll make a separate thread about why.

3rd, I was going to make a thread about Sheen, but now I don't feel up to it. But Sheen is a very overpowered item (that is, too many characters want it) that also contributes significantly to snowballing. When you gank someone early and fetch a sheen and they don't have sheen yet, you get put out so far ahead that the laning opponents have to hug tower or get ganked again. By the time they've managed to ks their own tower enough to buy their own sheen, they're pretty far behind. Sheen is another reason First Blood is way too close to gg.


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L0CUST

The Council

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmicarmicarmicat View Post
I think that it should sway as well - but not as much as it currently does! That's my opinion anyway. Being 2 levels higher for a teamfight because u dominated the lane has alot to say, Especially when it starts around lvl 6-8 and not lvl 12-14
shouldn't have died.. the map is tiny - there are wards/clairvoyance.. and summoner spells.. don't die before the first team fight


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Talamare

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
We wont be nerfing snowball items. Emotional highs from the game you super carried make this genre sticky. We removed it too much in the beta, and it cost us. Sorry, but being super carry annie or super carry corki once in a while gets a player through the 8 defeat in a row streak they hit the next day
Please nerf Mejai at least

You dont need to make it a trash item, just reduce the max number of stacks, or reduce the amount of AP you get per stack

But please! nerf it~!


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h3w0

Senior Member

02-15-2010

I don't get what all this snowball argument was about. In any competitive dota game, losing 2 team figths in a row is a kiss of death. You give the other team too much momentum, i.e. 'snowball'. At that point you have to hope they make mistakes (not likely in a high skill game) to give you back the lead they have taken. This game is no different really. In a high skill game full of tight players, you give them too much a lead, you know they aren't going to noob up a team fight and give it back to you. I do not see a problem with this.


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Reyees

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Senior Member

02-15-2010

imo what this game lacks is an effective tower diving counter.

If you get 2 people with 1k+ hp you WILL be able to tower dive and kill someone at full health easily.


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stimmedcows

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Senior Member

02-15-2010

After reading this thread through (I skimmed some stuff, admittedly) I notice that the common factor being repeated over and over is gold.

So here are some ideas...

1. Have champions incur bounty for scoring assists/assist streaks, not just killing blow streaks. A reduced amount but their contributions should be recognised I think. Your team needs to be able to close the gap and it seems a better alternative than 1000g+4 assists from taking down a solo Annie.

2. Scale the gold reward from killing champions.. e.g. only 150 gold for kills below level 6.. that will limit the early sheens/bf swords etc.

3. Flash spell is necessary to avoid early game gank as mentioned... if you made other summoner spells synergize it likely wouldnt be. Here is one example. Suppose I take cleanse/ghost for my spells. I can select a defensive mastery that causes ghost to remove cc on use, if I have cleanse selected as a summoner spell and off cooldown. This would mean being able to ghost to cleanse/escape, and still have cleanse ready. You could also have the "heal" spell do a team cleanse, to counter the AOE stuns as well as the damage.

Thats all for now


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SlyGoat

Member

02-15-2010

#1 problem is, the game is not objective based at the moment, it's a deathmatch.

I honestly think a more objective oriented game style, like a king of the hill or control point style, would fit this genre perfectly. Maybe LoL will pioneer that, would be awesome. Demigod did a control point style thing, and it worked (for all the flaws of Demigod, their objective focus was very solid) - the team that kept superior map control won, hands down.

At this stage though it'd require a pretty huge redesign of how LoL works at its core, so yeah it's just a pipe dream I have.

The current map can be made more objective based with a higher emphasis on your lane, and especially your towers, and adding TP scrolls. This gives a a higher incentive to split up instead of always roaming in groups of 5, which in turn leads to less "team snowballing" and more room for an individual player to shine and actually have an effect on the outcome of the game.

Right now, a single good player with decent teammates who don't roam as 5 will lose to a group of awful players who do roam as 5. Sure, the awful players had better "teamwork", but what is "teamwork" in this case? A primitive mob mentality? And something completely beyond your control, as it relies on 4 other people you probably don't know at all. This is also a big reason why most people agree solo queue is garbage.

This is getting a little off topic, but the point is, making the game more objective centered rather than kill centered would probably solve a lot of the problems with the game.

my two cents.